Kenosis Heresy

Theo1689

Well-known member
You need to get used to the FACT that Paul distinguishes God, who is the Father, from Christ who is the "Lord."

The Father is both God and Lord.
The Christ is both God and Lord.
And in fact, the term "LORD" is what the Jews used to call God instead of using the name, "YHWH", in order to avoid using God's name in vain.

But out of convention, Paul distinguished between the two by referring to God as "Father" (without denying His Lordship), and referring to the Son as "Lord" (without denying His deity).

And in fact, 1 Cor. 8:6 is an expansion of the Sh'ma, Deut. 6:4-5, which includes both the Father and the Son as the one true God.
 

cjab

Well-known member
A human person who has a human nature can save no one but himself. A divine person who has a human nature can save all those whom He has chosen to save. Because the divine person is infinite, the merit of His suffering according to His human nature can be applied to many people. The value of His sacrifice can extend to many because His person is not finite. Our salvation requires a divine person who suffered according to His human nature, not His divine nature.
Actually it is God who saves.

A divine person cannot have a human nature by your doctrine (not mine I stress) as otherwise he wouldn't be God (God cannot change). You must invent a dependent human person which subsists alongside your divine person. As such your divine person is incapable of being a savior as he only exists in the divine nature, and your human person in likewise incapable of providing salvation as he is a product of philosophical discourse and not a human being of free will as subordinate to (controlled by) the divine.

You invalidate Heb 5:8,9 "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

For you, the Son "wasn't made perfect" because he never lacked perfection.
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
NOT convention. See 1 Cor 11:3.

Huh?

1Cor. 11:3 But I want you to know that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

Would you like to explain what you think your point is, or do we have to guess?
 

civic

Well-known member
Actually it is God who saves.

A divine person cannot have a human nature by your doctrine (not mine I stress) as otherwise he wouldn't be God (God cannot change). You must invent a dependent human person which subsists alongside your divine person. As such your divine person is incapable of being a savior as he only exists in the divine nature, and your human person in likewise incapable of providing salvation as he is a product of philosophical discourse and not a human being of free will as subordinate to (controlled by) the divine.

You invalidate Heb 5:8,9 "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

For you, the Son "wasn't made perfect" because he never lacked perfection.
That’s false since nowhere in Scripture is God limited by your assumption.
 

cjab

Well-known member
Huh?

1Cor. 11:3 But I want you to know that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

Would you like to explain what you think your point is, or do we have to guess?
God is the head of Christ. I'm sorry that this point is incomprehensible to a Trinitarian. Just one of those many, many problems. Also see John 14:28, Titus 2:13 and many other such verses.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
God is the head of Christ. I'm sorry that this point is incomprehensible to a Trinitarian.

Your condescension notwithstanding, every Trinitarian knows and accepts that "God is the head of Christ". What you've failed to explain is how that is the least bit at odds with the Trinity.

Just one of those many, many problems.

Well, so far we're at ZERO "problems".

Also see John 14:28,

John 14:28 You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.

We still have ZERO "problems".
I get the feeling that you are quoting random verses now.

Titus 2:13 and many other such verses.

Titus 2:13 as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

One of my favourite passages, where Paul identifies Jesus as "our great God and Savior".

Still ZERO "problems".
 

OldShepherd

Well-known member
Actually it is God who saves.

A divine person cannot have a human nature by your doctrine (not mine I stress) as otherwise he wouldn't be God (God cannot change). You must invent a dependent human person which subsists alongside your divine person. As such your divine person is incapable of being a savior as he only exists in the divine nature, and your human person in likewise incapable of providing salvation as he is a product of philosophical discourse and not a human being of free will as subordinate to (controlled by) the divine.
You invalidate Heb 5:8,9 "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"
For you, the Son "wasn't made perfect" because he never lacked perfection.
The word translated "perfect" in Hebrews 5:9 is τελειωθεις which means complete, accomplish.
 

OldShepherd

Well-known member
* * * Titus 2:13 as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
One of my favourite passages, where Paul identifies Jesus as "our great God and Savior".
Still ZERO "problems".
Peter also also identifies Jesus as God and Savior.
2 Peter 1:1
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
του θεου ημων και σωτηρος ημων ιησου χριστου


2 Peter 1:11
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
του κυριου ημων και σωτηρος ιησου χριστου

If Jesus is not God and Savior in vs. 1 He is not Lord and Savior in vs. 11. Both phrases have the same Greek grammatical structure.
 

cjab

Well-known member
The word translated "perfect" in Hebrews 5:9 is τελειωθεις which means complete, accomplish.
The tense is aorist passive.
The tense in Heb 5:9 is thus the same as that in James 2:22 "by works was faith made perfect".
It is talking about Christ himself being made perfect or complete.
 

cjab

Well-known member
Your condescension notwithstanding, every Trinitarian knows and accepts that "God is the head of Christ". What you've failed to explain is how that is the least bit at odds with the Trinity.
Per Trinity Christ IS God so God cannot be his "head."

Well, so far we're at ZERO "problems".
One shouldn't imagine that one's perception is "necessarily" the same as reality or truth. Many sinners are lost upon this fallacy.

John 14:28 You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.

We still have ZERO "problems".
I get the feeling that you are quoting random verses now.
How can God be greater than God?

Titus 2:13 as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

One of my favourite passages, where Paul identifies Jesus as "our great God and Savior".

Still ZERO "problems".
The problem here is in the scurrilous mistranslation of the Greek by Trinitarians. They have turned the genitive Greek noun "doxa" into an adjective to make the text say something it doesn't say.

It should read "appearing of the glory of the great God and our saviour Jesus Christ" - which speaks of Christ being the glory of God.

This is one of the worst instances of "deliberate" Trinitarian mistranslation.
 

johnny guitar

Well-known member
Actually it is God who saves.

A divine person cannot have a human nature by your doctrine (not mine I stress) as otherwise he wouldn't be God (God cannot change). You must invent a dependent human person which subsists alongside your divine person. As such your divine person is incapable of being a savior as he only exists in the divine nature, and your human person in likewise incapable of providing salvation as he is a product of philosophical discourse and not a human being of free will as subordinate to (controlled by) the divine.

You invalidate Heb 5:8,9 "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

For you, the Son "wasn't made perfect" because he never lacked perfection.
Indeed, Our God and Savior, Jesus Christ saves.
And He does so because He is God AND Man.
 

johnny guitar

Well-known member
Per Trinity Christ IS God so God cannot be his "head."


One shouldn't imagine that one's perception is "necessarily" the same as reality or truth. Many sinners are lost upon this fallacy.


How can God be greater than God?


The problem here is in the scurrilous mistranslation of the Greek by Trinitarians. They have turned the genitive Greek noun "doxa" into an adjective to make the text say something it doesn't say.

It should read "appearing of the glory of the great God and our saviour Jesus Christ" - which speaks of Christ being the glory of God.

This is one of the worst instances of "deliberate" Trinitarian mistranslation.
Our Great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
ONLY ONE Person appearing, NOT two.
 

johnny guitar

Well-known member
The tense is aorist passive.
The tense in Heb 5:9 is thus the same as that in James 2:22 "by works was faith made perfect".
It is talking about Christ himself being made perfect or complete.
Perfect by His sufferings, which made Him the perfect sacrificial Lamb.
Moral perfection is NOT in view in this passage.
James 2:22 is speaking of Christian believers, NOT Christ.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Per Trinity Christ IS God so God cannot be his "head."

You are confusing "being" with "person".
"God" is His "being". "Son" is His "person".

Christ is God, and the Father is His head.
This is why you should try to be more humble in your approach, and stop trying to be a holier-than-thou know-it-all.
Do you understand?

One shouldn't imagine that one's perception is "necessarily" the same as reality or truth. Many sinners are lost upon this fallacy.

Yes... YOU of all people should be VERY concerned about this very thing, instead of presuming to judge others. Lose the attitude.

How can God be greater than God?

The Father can have a role which is greater than the Son's.

The problem here is in the scurrilous mistranslation of the Greek by Trinitarians. They have turned the genitive Greek noun "doxa" into an adjective to make the text say something it doesn't say.

Well, first off, are you fluent in Koine Greek? I don't believe you are.
Secondly, this is not a "Trinitarian" "mistranslation"

Secondly, there's no significant difference between "the glory of the appearing" and "the glorious appearing", regarding meaning, so I think you're grasping at straws here.

Third, it's Christ who will be appearing, not the Father.

And finally, it is clear from the Greek that the entire phrase, "our great God and Savior", is referring to Christ, in exactly the same way that "our Lord and Savior" in 2 Pet. 1:11 is referring to Christ.

It's not "Trinitarian bias" which is showing that, but your anti-Trinitarian bias which is denying the obvious. Now we can discuss this in more detail if you'd like, but I'd appreciate it if you lost the superior attitude.

It should read "appearing of the glory of the great God and our saviour Jesus Christ" - which speaks of Christ being the glory of God.

I'm sorry, but I don't recognize your "ability" to read Greek, especially when it goes against EVERY modern translation. Again, the phrase "our great God and Savior" refers to ONE person, that is, Christ.

This is one of the worst instances of "deliberate" Trinitarian mistranslation.

Oh, wow... "Deliberate"? So now you're pretending to be a mind-reader? I guess the virtue of "charity" is absent from your vocabulary.
 

civic

Well-known member
Per Trinity Christ IS God so God cannot be his "head."


One shouldn't imagine that one's perception is "necessarily" the same as reality or truth. Many sinners are lost upon this fallacy.


How can God be greater than God?


The problem here is in the scurrilous mistranslation of the Greek by Trinitarians. They have turned the genitive Greek noun "doxa" into an adjective to make the text say something it doesn't say.

It should read "appearing of the glory of the great God and our saviour Jesus Christ" - which speaks of Christ being the glory of God.

This is one of the worst instances of "deliberate" Trinitarian mistranslation.
Since when does role or rank play a part in ones nature ?

Does a woman is submission to her husband make her any less human ?

Are you any less human than the CEO, CFO. COO of your company because they have a higher rank over you ?
 

cjab

Well-known member
You are confusing "being" with "person".
"God" is His "being". "Son" is His "person".

Christ is God, and the Father is His head.
This is why you should try to be more humble in your approach, and stop trying to be a holier-than-thou know-it-all.
Do you understand?
No, you're just talking nonsense. God is not "a state of being." It is identified with a personal pronoun and / or with the Father throughout the bible.

Nothing further to add really.

Yes... YOU of all people should be VERY concerned about this very thing, instead of presuming to judge others. Lose the attitude.

The Father can have a role which is greater than the Son's.
He didn't say the Father's role was greater than himself. He said the Father was greater than himself.


Well, first off, are you fluent in Koine Greek? I don't believe you are.
I don't think we need to be fluent in Koine Greek to distinguish a noun from an adjective. We just look it up in the interlinear.

Secondly, this is not a "Trinitarian" "mistranslation"
Are you telling me the translators weren't Trinitarians?

Secondly, there's no significant difference between "the glory of the appearing" and "the glorious appearing", regarding meaning, so I think you're grasping at straws here.
I didn't say "glory of the appearing." I said "appearing of the glory."

Third, it's Christ who will be appearing, not the Father.

And finally, it is clear from the Greek that the entire phrase, "our great God and Savior", is referring to Christ, in exactly the same way that "our Lord and Savior" in 2 Pet. 1:11 is referring to Christ.

It's not "Trinitarian bias" which is showing that, but your anti-Trinitarian bias which is denying the obvious. Now we can discuss this in more detail if you'd like, but I'd appreciate it if you lost the superior attitude.



I'm sorry, but I don't recognize your "ability" to read Greek, especially when it goes against EVERY modern translation. Again, the phrase "our great God and Savior" refers to ONE person, that is, Christ.



Oh, wow... "Deliberate"? So now you're pretending to be a mind-reader? I guess the virtue of "charity" is absent from your vocabulary.
Please stop talking nonsense and apply your injunction to be humble to yourself FIRST.
 
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