Kenosis Heresy

101G

Well-known member
First off, the KJV translation is faulty
it this no an excuse, and this, one
belowSorry but I don't learn from the same human wisdom and reasoning that you learn from but rather from the wisdom and reasoning of God himself through the discernment he give by his Spirit.

Furthermore, you are not qualified to teach others the truth, for you don't even know it yourself.
well the pot calling the kittle black.... lol. as for teaching you need to READ Hebrews 5:12-14 read all of it.

BUT NO WORRIES, just tey to keep up in learning. 2 Timothy 3:7 "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." :eek: YIKES!.

PICJAG, 101G.
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
Jesus Person is Divine. That is your answer.

I will add a third question using your term.

1) Did Jesus’ DEITY “lay aside His rights as Deity”?

2) Did Jesus’ HUMANITY “lay aside His rights as Deity”?

3) Did Jesus Person “lay aside His rights as Deity”?
 

civic

Well-known member
I will add a third question using your term.

1) Did Jesus’ DEITY “lay aside His rights as Deity”?

2) Did Jesus’ HUMANITY “lay aside His rights as Deity”?

3) Did Jesus Person “lay aside His rights as Deity”?
You can rephrase your same question a 1000 times and my answer will always be Jesus is a Divine Person. I’m not a Nestorian which believes Jesus is a Divine and human person .

next……..
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
You can rephrase your same question a 1000 times and my answer will always be Jesus is a Divine Person. I’m not a Nestorian which believes Jesus is a Divine and human person .

next……..
The only way you can support your theology is to render "he emptied himself" as "he made himself nothing."

But the words "made" and "nothing" are not in the Greek.

Besides you don't really believe our Lord and Savior is or was "nothing" do you.

He was the greatest man who ever lived. He performed miracles. He died for our sins. He is the way and the truth and the life.

He was never "nothing."
 

civic

Well-known member
The only way you can support your theology is to render "he emptied himself" as "he made himself nothing."

But the words "made" and "nothing" are not in the Greek.

Besides you don't really believe our Lord and Savior is or was "nothing" do you.

He was the greatest man who ever lived. He performed miracles. He died for our sins. He is the way and the truth and the life.

He was never "nothing."
Read the OP in its complete context roger where it’s explained. Thanks !
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
Read the OP in its complete context roger where it’s explained. Thanks !
I did. You are welcome to your opinion and it's good if you are preaching to the choir but it has no apologetics value.

One can prove anything if one changes the text.
 
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Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
Phil 2:5-8
In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
NIV

These translation capture the meaning of the text in its CONTEXT.


New International Version
rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

New Living Translation
Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form,

New King James Version
but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.

King James Bible
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:


Thayers Greek Lexicon
namely, τοῦ εἶναι ἴσα Θεῷ or τῆς μορφῆς τοῦ Θεοῦ, i. e. he laid aside equality with or the form of God (said of Christ), Philippians 2:7

Strongs Lexicon
From kenos; to make empty, i.e. (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify -- make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain.

Louw Nida Greek Lexicon
87.70
κενόωb: to completely remove or eliminate elements of high status or rank by eliminating all privileges or prerogatives associated with such status or rank.

What Paul makes very clear in this passage is that in addition to being God, He became man. The Incarnation was not a subtraction of His deity but an addition of humanity to His nature. This passage does not say Jesus gave up His deity but that He laid aside His rights as Deity, assuming the form of a servant in verse 7. The text says He was in the form of God or being in the very nature of God in 2:6. Just as He took upon Himself the "form of a servant" which is a servant by nature, so the "form of God" is God by nature. The word "being" from the phrase: being in the very form of God is a present active participle. This means "continued existence" as God. What Paul is actually saying here is Jesus has always been and still is in the "form of God". If you continue reading the passage Paul really drives this point home so that his readers have no doubt what he is trying to get across to the Philippians. Paul says that every knee will bow and will one day Confess Jesus is LORD. Paul takes the passage in Isaiah 45:23 which clearly refers to Yahweh a name used for God alone and says this of Jesus. The fulfillment of YHWH in Isaiah 45 is none other than Jesus who is God(Yahweh) in the flesh.

He self limited His divine prerogatives via the Incarnation as per Phil 2. In other words did not use them to His advantage but was in submission to the Father for 33 years to accomplish our salvation. All the FULLNESS of DEITY dwells in bodily form. Col 1:19;2:9. Jesus was and is fully God lacking nothing in His Deity.

Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Even through Christ existed in the form of God He did not regard equality with God something that He needed to reach for or grasp. Why because it was already His and never gave that up for a millisecond.

Paul is using syllogisms from the text in Philippians 2.

Just as the term “form of God” in verse six does not mean “less than God” because of the phrase “equality with God" in the prior passage.

It goes to reason in the same way with the 2 phrases in the “form of a servant” and in the “likeness of man” in verse seven do not mean that Jesus was any “less than human,” but instead means He was the same or “equal with all humans.”

That is how the passage reads and how it is to be understood in its " CONTEXT ".

In Colossians 1:19 and Colossians 2:9 the Apostle Paul said, For in HIM (CHRIST) ALL of the “ fullness of deity dwells bodily. “Did Paul use the word fullness there to mean partially? NO as Jesus did not empty Himself of His Deity. Jesus Divinity is FULL, complete lacking in nothing. The ENTIRE Fullness of Deity dwells (is present) bodily in Jesus.

This is how one exegetes the passage rather than using eisegesis- reading ones own thoughts and ideas into the text.

hope this helps !!!
I'll give you an example why your sources don't have any apologetics value, if indeed that is your purpose. I already mentioned that the rendering "made himself nothing" contains words not in the Greek, "made" and "nothing."

Why does the NIV render it this way? Their statement of faith says they believe "In the absolute deity and full humanity of our Lord Jesus Christ, God the Son."

Every translator had to agree to this before they could translate anything. To go to a seminary to learn Greek they were taught by professors who agreed to this in order to teach and they probably had to agree before they were allowed to attend the seminary.

How do you expect them to translate these verses?
 

johnny guitar

Well-known member
The only way you can support your theology is to render "he emptied himself" as "he made himself nothing."

But the words "made" and "nothing" are not in the Greek.

Besides you don't really believe our Lord and Savior is or was "nothing" do you.

He was the greatest man who ever lived. He performed miracles. He died for our sins. He is the way and the truth and the life.

He was never "nothing."
Which means He is God as well as Man.
 

aeg4971

Active member
GINOLJC, to all.
First thanks for the reply, second I have no problem, the problem is you and many other who don't inderstand the "ECHAD" of ONE PERSON "ONLY".

this is your problem, listen closley, the plural you use is not in Ordinal expression, but in cardinal numbers, that's your problem, you should seriously learn the difference between Cardinal numbers and Ordinal Numbers. for the plurality is expressed in the term G243 allos, the "ANOTHER" which is a numerical difference in TIME, PLACE, RANK, and get this "ORDER"... which is ORDINAL in Nature. HELLO? did you get that? and that numerical difference is expressed in the ordinal number First and Last. who is ONE PERSON. listen again,

Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he."
did you understand? the "First" is "WITH", WITH, the Last and he said "I", ONE PERSON, lets make it clear, the Word in John 1:1 is "WITH" God ... right, now hear this, Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." HELLO, HELLO,
did you understand that? NOT TWO BEING, but ONE BEING "Diversified", or "shared" in the NUMERICAL DIFFERENCE of First and Last. this is possible of God by "SHARING" EQUALLY himself in "FLESH and Bone, with blood, by making himself G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō'), while in that Natural Flesh and blood. BINGO.

now, do one have two "Spirit" meaning NATURE? no, the Spirit is the Same, now the "Spirit" shared in flesh is in "TIME", PLACE", "ORDER", and "RANK".

lets make it plain,
TIME: In the Beginning, ...... Genesis 1:1, and John 1:1 the End the Last Adam. the titles "the Beginning and the End".

PLACE: position in this time and space ...... Genesis 1:1 "CREATOR" and "MAKER of all things. , John 1:1 "SAVIOUR, and "REDEEMER" of all things.

ORDER: in the time and position ....Cardinal NUMBERS. Genesis 1:1 Title, "Father", John 1:1 "Son".

RANK: in this time, place and position, ...... Genesis 1:1 "LORD", John 1:1 "Lord".

this is too easy. learn the difference then you will not be asking in the dark anymore, as "your theological construct actually teaches two beings." is that's my construct or yours? this is what I been say when one is Ignorant of UNDERSTANDING, they .... "construct"... on a false foundation.

now the Amalgamation of this "TIME", "PLACE", "ORDER", and "RANK", Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"

LISTEN, Revelation 1:4:b, "from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne"

WHICH IS, WHICH WAS, and WHICH IS to Come is the same as .... "I AM, THAT, I AM" ................. (smile).... lol.


WHICH IS... "I AM", (Spirit), Genesis 1:1 title LORD, Father, the Beginning, the "FIRST" , the Alpha. CREATOR, and MAKER

WHICH WAS ... "THAT" , (spirit, shared in flesh), John 1:1, title, Lord, the End, the "LAST" , The Omega, SAVIOUR, and REDEEMER

WHICH IS to Come, "I AM", (Spirit), Revelation 1:1, title ALL OF THE ABOVE . HELLO ......

MY GOD he told us over and over, "I AM THAT I AM", I AM the "First" and I AM the "Last", the Beginning and the End, the Alpha and the Omega, and I AM the FATHER and the SON......

How hard is that to understand? so never construct on a flase foundation, build on the ONLY TRUE FOUNDATION, the ONLY TRUE and LIVING GOD, the Lord JESUS.

if you have any serious questions, post them, all other nonesense is rejected. we suggest you re-read this post for clarity and edification.

PICJAG. 101G.

On the contrary there is no numerical difference ,but rather a distinction signified by number 1,2,3. I understand we number so as not to assert Jesus is His own Father or Jesus is less than God the Father . Therefore numbering only signifies NEGATION and not ADDITION as you like to argue every post. Leaving you like many arguing against what you import, not what is actually there.


.......Alan
 

aeg4971

Active member
Fact is fact dude and neither the word "isa" or its English "equal" ever refers to one who is the same exact single being as another and all phony baloney apostate religious clackers will very soon bite hard into that reality also and as Jesus said it below.

Luke 13:28 “There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.
God own Word can be nothing else than God Himself . End of story dude.

........Alan
 

aeg4971

Active member
By the way, all of creation was conceived first in God's mind and therefore your idea that "God doesn't birth creatures out of himself" is also totally false.

For where else do you think that they came from dude?

For before he spoke them into existence, they didn't exist at all and he spoke them into existence out from his mind where they were first conceived as his thought and plan.

God mind is His very being as He is not of body with a small head and with a measurable brain. Come back with less humanism and sundering please.


.......Alan
 

aeg4971

Active member
Because the OP which was posted by a TRINITARIAN says...

“The Incarnation was not a subtraction of His deity but an addition of humanity to His nature. This passage does not say Jesus gave up His deity but that He laid aside His rights as Deity,”

So the TRINITARIAN is the one distinguishing between Jesus’ deity and humanity.

I am simply asking for clarification of the TRINITARIAN statement. So tell us...

1) Did Jesus’ DEITY “lay aside His rights as Deity”?

2) Did Jesus’ HUMANITY “lay aside His rights as Deity”?

Now we will see if you are able to answer these simply Yes / No questions.

I answer that the verses really speak for themselves so I don't know why you contemplate your navel over triviality.


6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


.......Alan
 

101G

Well-known member
On the contrary there is no numerical difference ,but rather a distinction
question is a "SHARE", a numerical difference? ... thank you.
but rather a distinction signified by number 1,2,3.
this is the GROSS ERROR, that cardinal Number in quantity. listen, Cardinal numbers tell "how many' of something, they show quantity". Ordinal numbers tell "the order of how things are set, they show the position or the rank of something". example ... First, and Last.
I understand we number so as not to assert Jesus is His own Father or Jesus is less than God the Father .
again the "EQUAL" ........ "SHARE".
Therefore numbering only signifies NEGATION and not ADDITION as you like to argue every post. Leaving you like many arguing against what you import, not what is actually there.
again ERROR, how is the "EQUAL" sharing of ONE is arguing aganist Ordinal designation? it's not me but you not understanding Ordinal numbering. again, Cardinal numbers tell "how many' of something, they show quantity". Ordinal numbers tell "the order of how things are set, they show the position or the rank of something".

I keep telling you .... understand the difference between Cardinal Numbers and Ordinal Numbering.

PICJAG, 101G.
 

aeg4971

Active member
question is a "SHARE", a numerical difference? ... thank you.

this is the GROSS ERROR, that cardinal Number in quantity. listen, Cardinal numbers tell "how many' of something, they show quantity". Ordinal numbers tell "the order of how things are set, they show the position or the rank of something". example ... First, and Last.

again the "EQUAL" ........ "SHARE".

again ERROR, how is the "EQUAL" sharing of ONE is arguing aganist Ordinal designation? it's not me but you not understanding Ordinal numbering. again, Cardinal numbers tell "how many' of something, they show quantity". Ordinal numbers tell "the order of how things are set, they show the position or the rank of something".

I keep telling you .... understand the difference between Cardinal Numbers and Ordinal Numbering.

PICJAG, 101G.

Equal share is because so to speak, God follows His own nature ". You teach diversity in God which is polytheism, leaving you completely unqualified to assert I'm in error . You fail to properly perceive words and terms, which is demonstrated in everyone of your post.

Your theological construct is based on the humanism you import to the Trinity, and not actually what this name Trinity expresses.

Like Aquinas says" the distinction between the Father and the Son is that the Father is the Father and the Son is the Son or more exact the Father is denominated by fatherhood and the Son is denominated by sonship ". Nothing you say changes that Biblical fact.


.......Alan

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