Kenosis Heresy

Theo1689

Well-known member
They are three. But you will only find one in scripture, God the Father.

No, the three persons are ONE God.
If YOU are claiming they are "three", then you are NOT describing the Trinity.
You are arguing a "straw-man", and that is fallacious.

Because they Trinity EXPLICITLY teaches that only ONE god exists.
 

cjab

Well-known member
No, the three persons are ONE God.
If YOU are claiming they are "three", then you are NOT describing the Trinity.
You are arguing a "straw-man", and that is fallacious.

Because they Trinity EXPLICITLY teaches that only ONE god exists.
The polytheistic Trinity teaches God The Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit of one substance and one will with three hypostases (3 x persons). Therefore 3 x Gods.

If A begets B, and then A begets C, you have A, B, C. 3 x Gods. Whether they are of the same substance or not, or the same will, or not, is not material when considering the number of Gods. They may harmonize their wills, and their substance to present one effective God, which is what you're saying. But they are still three Gods nonetheless.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
The Trinity teaches God The Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit of one substance and one will with three hypostases (3 x persons). Therefore 3 x Gods.

No, that is NOT what the Trinity teaches.

As long as you continue to MISREPRESENT what we believe you continue to beat down a worthless straw-man, and you don't even BEGIN to address what we ACTUALLY believe.
 

cjab

Well-known member
No, that is NOT what the Trinity teaches.

As long as you continue to MISREPRESENT what we believe you continue to beat down a worthless straw-man, and you don't even BEGIN to address what we ACTUALLY believe.
There are different trinities. There is also a monotheistic trinity. I'm not misrepresenting what "you" believe because I don't even know what "you" believe. I'm describing the polytheistic trinity. If you want to amend it, feel free.
 

Kampioen

Active member
I'm just curious, how would describe the "ceasing the display of His power"? Certainly the Father and Spirit have at many times ceased the display of their power as well?

Also what to you does it mean to "com[e] under the influence of the ... human senses," in what way would the human senses "influence" the divine nature making it human?
I say influence for lack of a better word.

I would say God can experience the self awareness of a biological human mind just as well as the created supernatural self awareness that a man normally has. And since that human experience is non-omniscient, God would experience the same ie without His display of omni-attributes.

I would say God ie the Word by omniscience alone already experiences all non-omniscient scenarios. He did this in real time when He became a man.

But I would say that although Jesus by His human nature is non-omniscient and has no omni-attributes, behind the scenes by His divine nature He still upholds the universe. By Him all things consist. He still has His omni-attributes.

Colossians 1:17
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
 

civic

Well-known member
God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, God The Father.
Monotheism is listed by every single reliable source which has the 3 major monotheistic religions as

1- Judaism
2- Islam
3- Christianity

And Christianity is Trinitarianism. So you have bad information.
 

Anthony

Active member
Any reference to "person" is an anthropomorphization because they are "Spirit" (God is Spirit). "Person" is only a representation of what Spirit is. Not only are they Spirit, but indefinable Spirit other than by their revealed attributes / nature. They are not "same Spirit" but have the "same properties", i.e. nature and form (as they are One). See what you are doing is refusing to allow the veil of one'ness to be pierced using human arguments. Such run counters to what is written in scripture about "the Word" being with "the God" in Jn 1:1.

In regard to lesser God and greater God, Jn 1:1 denies it, as the Word manifests the Father (fullness of deity). That doesn't mean that the Father isn't greater than the Word. It means they manifest the same properties of God, as God is conceptualized by man, which are the properties of the Father.

Consider an analogy: the atom. It represents a permanent unity, an element whose nucleus remains unchanged throughout all of material eternity (excepting external forces of a particular type such as nuclear fission/fusion). But that doesn't mean it isn't comprised of parts. When Christ came to earth, there was a spiritual fission (don't push the material analogy too far) but where the nucleus remained unaltered as to its core component (i..e. "God") and where the fissile material (Christ) continued to manifest the properties of "God." When Christ returned to the Father, there was a fusion. But these things have to be conceptualized in spiritual terms per scripture, not material terms.

And what about Daniel 7:13.14? How do you interpret it from a one'ness point of view? There are plainly two "persons" and in Revelation also, many instance where two "persons" are inferred.
There aren't two Persons anywhere in Revelation. Duality of powers and not Persons! In Revelation the One sitting on the Throne was like Jasper and Sardis stones one precious stone is brilliant shine and the other is Red in colour. Which shows glory and the blood. These precious stones make up the last and first stone the High Priest wore in OT. Cryptic language has to be understood. He and the Lamb aren't two Persons for it's by His blood He has redeemed and made us kings and priests:

Rev 4: 4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones. On the thrones were twenty-four elders sitting, dressed in white garments, with crowns of gold on their heads.

Why are there 24 elders? It's both (12 tribes + 12 Apostles) OT and NT combined just like the 2 witnesses of Rev 11 standing for The Law and The Prophets. They testify to the Spirit of Christ (represented by the 7 horns and 7 eyes of the Lamb). YHWH and The Lamb are one the same in duality of powers and not in Persons - The First Who is also The Last.

Dan 7:9 “I watched until thrones were placed, and one who was ancient of days sat. His clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool. His throne was fiery flames, and its wheels burning fire.

Compare this with Rev 1: 14 His head and his hair were white as white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire.

Compare with also:

Ezk 1:26 Above the expanse that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire note stone. On the likeness of the throne was a likeness as the appearance of a man on it above.

27 I saw as it were glowing metal, as the appearance of fire within it all around, from the appearance of his waist and upward; and from the appearance of his waist and downward I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and there was brightness around him.

28 As the appearance of the rainbow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness all around. This was the appearance of the likeness of the LORD’s glory. When I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of one that spoke.

Every scripture points to Christ. He is the revelation of Himself as the unapproachable and invisible God.
 

cjab

Well-known member
There aren't two Persons anywhere in Revelation. Duality of powers and not Persons! In Revelation the One sitting on the Throne was like Jasper and Sardis stones one precious stone is brilliant shine and the other is Red in colour. Which shows glory and the blood. These precious stones make up the last and first stone the High Priest wore in OT. Cryptic language has to be understood. He and the Lamb aren't two Persons for it's by His blood He has redeemed and made us kings and priests:
Meaningless in the context of what you are trying to prove. I have already said you are engaged with Spirit, not persons.

Your sole line of argument seems to lie in "reductio ad absurdum," i.e to reduce both God the Father and the Son to "persons" and then say, God can't be "two persons," they can only be "one person." It is true that they are One, but it isn't true that they are the same (per Jn 1:1).

As Christ said on earth, "if you have seen me you have seen the Father." He could only say this because God is Spirit.

God is Spirit, and spirit behaves differently to "persons." You obviously didn't grasp a single thing I said.


Rev 4: 4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones. On the thrones were twenty-four elders sitting, dressed in white garments, with crowns of gold on their heads.

Why are there 24 elders? It's both (12 tribes + 12 Apostles) OT and NT combined just like the 2 witnesses of Rev 11 standing for The Law and The Prophets. They testify to the Spirit of Christ (represented by the 7 horns and 7 eyes of the Lamb). YHWH and The Lamb are one the same in duality of powers and not in Persons - The First Who is also The Last.

Dan 7:9 “I watched until thrones were placed, and one who was ancient of days sat. His clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool. His throne was fiery flames, and its wheels burning fire.

Compare this with Rev 1: 14 His head and his hair were white as white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire.

Compare with also:

Ezk 1:26 Above the expanse that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire note stone. On the likeness of the throne was a likeness as the appearance of a man on it above.

27 I saw as it were glowing metal, as the appearance of fire within it all around, from the appearance of his waist and upward; and from the appearance of his waist and downward I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and there was brightness around him.

28 As the appearance of the rainbow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness all around. This was the appearance of the likeness of the LORD’s glory. When I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of one that spoke.

Every scripture points to Christ. He is the revelation of Himself as the unapproachable and invisible God.
I'm not denying the every scripture points to Christ. But Christ didn't pray to himself.
 

cjab

Well-known member
IOW monotheism Trinitarianism.

Monotheism is listed by every single reliable source which has the 3 major monotheistic religions as

1- Judaism
2- Islam
3- Christianity

And Christianity is Trinitarianism. So you have bad information.
"While all adherents of the Abrahamic religions consider themselves to be monotheists, some in Judaism do not consider Christianity to be a pure form of monotheism (due to the Christian doctrine of the Trinity), classifying it as shituf. Islam likewise does not recognize modern-day Christianity as monotheistic, primarily due to the Christian doctrine of Trinity, which Islam categorizes as shirk and argues was a corruption of the beliefs actually held by Jesus. Christians, on the other hand, argue that the doctrine of the Trinity is a valid expression of monotheism, citing that the Trinity does not consist of three separate deities, but rather the three persons, who exist consubstantially (as one substance) within a single Godhead."

The issue as I see it concerns the over-anthropomorphization of God into persons. "Persons" isn't how deity is "structured" in heaven, even if anthropomorphization is allowed for the sake of convenience and understanding. Christians need to see beyond anthropomorphization, and understand the principle of spirit hierarchy, and how spirits interact.
 

Tanachreader

Well-known member
There aren't two Persons anywhere in Revelation. Duality of powers and not Persons! In Revelation the One sitting on the Throne was like Jasper and Sardis stones one precious stone is brilliant shine and the other is Red in colour. Which shows glory and the blood. These precious stones make up the last and first stone the High Priest wore in OT. Cryptic language has to be understood. He and the Lamb aren't two Persons for it's by His blood He has redeemed and made us kings and priests:

Rev 4: 4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones. On the thrones were twenty-four elders sitting, dressed in white garments, with crowns of gold on their heads.

Why are there 24 elders? It's both (12 tribes + 12 Apostles) OT and NT combined just like the 2 witnesses of Rev 11 standing for The Law and The Prophets. They testify to the Spirit of Christ (represented by the 7 horns and 7 eyes of the Lamb). YHWH and The Lamb are one the same in duality of powers and not in Persons - The First Who is also The Last.

Dan 7:9 “I watched until thrones were placed, and one who was ancient of days sat. His clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool. His throne was fiery flames, and its wheels burning fire.

Compare this with Rev 1: 14 His head and his hair were white as white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire.

Compare with also:

Ezk 1:26 Above the expanse that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire note stone. On the likeness of the throne was a likeness as the appearance of a man on it above.

27 I saw as it were glowing metal, as the appearance of fire within it all around, from the appearance of his waist and upward; and from the appearance of his waist and downward I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and there was brightness around him.

28 As the appearance of the rainbow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness all around. This was the appearance of the likeness of the LORD’s glory. When I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of one that spoke.

Every scripture points to Christ. He is the revelation of Himself as the unapproachable and invisible God.
You wrote:
Why are there 24 elders?
It's both (12 tribes + 12 Apostles) OT and NT


I doubt if the 24 elders are who you say as John who recieved the Revelation is obviously not one of the elders.
The Kingdom of Heaven is ancient much older than man.
 

civic

Well-known member
"While all adherents of the Abrahamic religions consider themselves to be monotheists, some in Judaism do not consider Christianity to be a pure form of monotheism (due to the Christian doctrine of the Trinity), classifying it as shituf. Islam likewise does not recognize modern-day Christianity as monotheistic, primarily due to the Christian doctrine of Trinity, which Islam categorizes as shirk and argues was a corruption of the beliefs actually held by Jesus. Christians, on the other hand, argue that the doctrine of the Trinity is a valid expression of monotheism, citing that the Trinity does not consist of three separate deities, but rather the three persons, who exist consubstantially (as one substance) within a single Godhead."

The issue as I see it concerns the over-anthropomorphization of God into persons. "Persons" isn't how deity is "structured" in heaven, even if anthropomorphization is allowed for the sake of convenience and understanding. Christians need to see beyond anthropomorphization, and understand the principle of spirit hierarchy, and how spirits interact.
Jesus is a person so there is no getting around personhood in the Trinity.
 

cjab

Well-known member
Jesus is a person so there is no getting around personhood in the Trinity.
Jesus was a human person who revealed the Father. His human personhood ceased on his resurrection into heaven. Now you only have Spirit to engage with.
 

civic

Well-known member
Jesus was a human person who revealed the Father. His human personhood ceased on his resurrection into heaven. Now you only have Spirit to engage with.
No Jesus is not a human person, He is a Divine Person. Trinitarians are not Nestorians.
 

cjab

Well-known member
No Jesus is not a human person, He is a Divine Person. Trinitarians are not Nestorians.
To say that Nestorius wasn't a trinitarian of some description will be libellous. Nestorius' taught that the Word, was eternal, and his doctrine on the Holy Spirit must have been accounted orthodox as he held a high rank in the church.

Just because he wasn't "your sort" of Trinitarian doesn't mean he didn't believe in a trinity. Beside which, the Nestorian church evangelized much of Asia as far as China over a period of hundreds of years. It can be construed as the true church in the wilderness.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
You wrote:
Why are there 24 elders?
It's both (12 tribes + 12 Apostles) OT and NT


I doubt if the 24 elders are who you say as John who recieved the Revelation is obviously not one of the elders.
The Kingdom of Heaven is ancient much older than man.
It could be their angels assigned to them by God.

However, Revelation is symbolic and figurative anyhow and John was seeing visions into the future and so it still could represent the 12 tribes and the 12 apostles.

Also, if you read Ephesians 2, Paul speaks as though the whole church is already seated in the heavenly places with Christ and I believe it is because he is seeing it from God's infinite and eternal perspective but that is how John was seeing all of this in Revelation also.

For he was seeing the future from God's infinite perspective and not from a finite human perspective and nearly every thing he sees, he sees as though it is already happening or has happened, even when it hasn't yet happened from our human finite perspective and dimension.
 

johnny guitar

Well-known member
"While all adherents of the Abrahamic religions consider themselves to be monotheists, some in Judaism do not consider Christianity to be a pure form of monotheism (due to the Christian doctrine of the Trinity), classifying it as shituf. Islam likewise does not recognize modern-day Christianity as monotheistic, primarily due to the Christian doctrine of Trinity, which Islam categorizes as shirk and argues was a corruption of the beliefs actually held by Jesus. Christians, on the other hand, argue that the doctrine of the Trinity is a valid expression of monotheism, citing that the Trinity does not consist of three separate deities, but rather the three persons, who exist consubstantially (as one substance) within a single Godhead."

The issue as I see it concerns the over-anthropomorphization of God into persons. "Persons" isn't how deity is "structured" in heaven, even if anthropomorphization is allowed for the sake of convenience and understanding. Christians need to see beyond anthropomorphization,
Christians are NOT concerned with what Judaism and Islam consider Christianity to be nor with their opinion of The Trinity.
Referring to The Father, Son, Holy Spirit as Persons is NOT anthropomorphism.
 
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