Kenosis Heresy

JNelson

Well-known member
so God saying His Son is God isn’t true.
Also read and open those blind eyes.

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
You completely ignore the use of θεος for someone other than God and therefore you make two Gods because the only true God is the God of Jesus.

1 John 5:20 is calling the Father true God as he the one who John calls “him who is true” already twice in the same verse. This verse also parallels John 17:3 so clearly John is taking from what Jesus said, he’s not saying something different.
 

Tanachreader

Well-known member
You completely ignore the use of θεος for someone other than God and therefore you make two Gods because the only true God is the God of Jesus.

1 John 5:20 is calling the Father true God as he the one who John calls “him who is true” already twice in the same verse. This verse also parallels John 17:3 so clearly John is taking from what Jesus said, he’s not saying something different.
try again!
That is the same John who wrote the Revelation and the following:
1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 ¶ There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 ¶ He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
 

JNelson

Well-known member
try again!
That is the same John who wrote the Revelation and the following:
1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 ¶ There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 ¶ He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
To deny John 17:3 is the basis for 1 John 5:20 is completely ridiculous. John is restating what Jesus prayed to the Father. The parallel is undeniable.
 

Tanachreader

Well-known member
Yet this “one God” you believe in is not the God of Jesus so you are a polytheist
Where did I post that.
It is you who deny all the scriptures posted.
Your mere man theology.

Luke 1:47 (KJV)
And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

John 20:17 (KJV)
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

John 20:28 (KJV)
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Jesus is the Son of God and the Son of Man.
He came down from Heaven.
 

JNelson

Well-known member
Where did I post that.
It is you who deny all the scriptures posted.
Your mere man theology.

Luke 1:47 (KJV)
And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

John 20:17 (KJV)
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

John 20:28 (KJV)
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Jesus is the Son of God and the Son of Man.
He came down from Heaven.
You say the only true God is the trinity while Jesus says the Father is the only true God. I believe Jesus not you.
 

JNelson

Well-known member
As opposed to false Gods of which Israel was guilty of.
God called His Son God.
John 10:30 (KJV)
I and [my] Father are one.
Scriptures te each there’s only one true God, is this one true God the God of Jesus or is only 1/3 of the one true God the God of Jesus?
 

Anthony

Active member
To deny John 17:3 is the basis for 1 John 5:20 is completely ridiculous. John is restating what Jesus prayed to the Father. The parallel is undeniable.
This scripture John 17:3 has totally gone above your head. John 17 is the prayer of His Mediator's role of reconciling the children given to Him by God The Father (transcendent God). He came as the true Israel of God

But it doesn't mean that He is not God. Phil 2:6-7 throws the light on His being equal with God(transcendent) but didn't use this reputation to His advantage as He came with a mission.

As I said earlier, you need to sweep many scriptures under the carpet or deny the evident scriptures like Phil 2:5-7, 1John 5:20 and many more.

His equally with God never changes but for a while He had to come in flesh based on the promises He made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

To deny Christ's Deity is to deny the Deity of the Transcendent Father. No one will ever see transcendent God but only Christ as His visible face
 

JNelson

Well-known member
This scripture John 17:3 has totally gone above your head. John 17 is the prayer of His Mediator's role of reconciling the children given to Him by God The Father (transcendent God). He came as the true Israel of God

But it doesn't mean that He is not God. Phil 2:6-7 throws the light on His being equal with God(transcendent) but didn't use this reputation to His advantage as He came with a mission.

As I said earlier, you need to sweep many scriptures under the carpet or deny the evident scriptures like Phil 2:5-7, 1John 5:20 and many more.

His equally with God never changes but for a while He had to come in flesh based on the promises He made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

To deny Christ's Deity is to deny the Deity of the Transcendent Father. No one will ever see transcendent God but only Christ as His visible face
You not only deny John 17:3 but countless others and by doing this you make Jesus himself a liar
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Scriptures te each there’s only one true God, is this one true God the God of Jesus or is only 1/3 of the one true God the God of Jesus?

"1/3 of the one true God"?

It's amazing how many anti-Trinitarians are completely ignorant of what the Trinity ACTUALLY teaches.
 

Anthony

Active member
You not only deny John 17:3 but countless others and by doing this you make Jesus himself a liar
Nelson, you don't understand understand what c scrontext He spoke in John 17:3. You only read scriptures only from surface level. Jesus didn't lie in John 17:3 as well as in John 17:5. But the people don't even know the overall context and Chris's mission.

Good luck in knowing the Father as the only true God without understanding Who The Son is

Mat 11:27 “All have been handed over to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and he to whom the Son wishes to reveal Him.

First understand the context of John 1:1. It's The Word and not God (transcendent). The Word being God reveals the Transcendent God . There cannot be two Gods or a God before God. It means The Living WORD to His people the only true God by being His equal share in creation. Otherwise, it's impossible as no creature has any access to Transcendent God. Get this in your head or else you are trying to gather wind in your fist. That's why unitarians cannot possibly know The Father because The Son has not revealed to them

The YHWH Whom the prophets heard in the OT is in reality The WORD Himself in the Spirit of The Father as well as in The Spirit of The Son in prophetic scriptures.

The writers of Jewish Targums understand this concept.

The present day Christendom doesn't understand this.
 
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JNelson

Well-known member
Nelson, you don't understand understand what c scrontext He spoke in John 17:3. You only read scriptures only from surface level.
So if I take a verse at face value like John 17:3 that’s a problem and at the same time if I don’t take a verse at face value like in John 6:38 then it’s also a problem.
Jesus didn't lie in John 17:3 as well as in John 17:5. But the people don't even know the overall context and Chris's mission.
I agree, Jesus didn’t lie in neither.
Good luck in knowing the Father as the only true God without understanding Who The Son is
I can only know the Father as the only true God through Jesus. He came to make him known, that’s exactly what 1 John 5:20 is saying “And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true”
Mat 11:27 “All have been handed over to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and he to whom the Son wishes to reveal Him.

First understand the context of John 1:1. It's The Word and not God (transcendent). The Word being God reveals the Transcendent God . There cannot be two Gods or a God before God.
The word is a personification of the word of God/Yahweh.
It means The Living WORD to His people the only true God by being His equal share in creation.
Equal share in creation?? No, God created through his word as in he spoke and it was. This is what Psalm 33:9 states “For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood firm”

Otherwise, it's impossible as no creature has any access to Transcendent God.
Only the our Mediator, the MAN Christ Jesus not the Godman.
Get this in your head or else you are trying to gather wind in your fist. That's why unitarians cannot possibly know The Father because The Son has not revealed to them
I know the Father by what Jesus taught about him.
The YHWH Whom the prophets heard in the OT is in reality The WORD Himself in the Spirit of The Father as well as in The Spirit of The Son in prophetic scriptures.

The writers of Jewish Targums understand this concept.

The present day Christendom doesn't understand this.
The Targums consistently replaced God or Yahweh with the word of the Lord so it’s not a separate person. They personified the word yet it was still God himself not another person
 

Anthony

Active member
So if I take a verse at face value like John 17:3 that’s a problem and at the same time if I don’t take a verse at face value like in John 6:38 then it’s also a problem.

I agree, Jesus didn’t lie in neither.

I can only know the Father as the only true God through Jesus. He came to make him known, that’s exactly what 1 John 5:20 is saying “And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true”

The word is a personification of the word of God/Yahweh.

Equal share in creation?? No, God created through his word as in he spoke and it was. This is what Psalm 33:9 states “For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood firm”


Only the our Mediator, the MAN Christ Jesus not the Godman.

I know the Father by what Jesus taught about him.

The Targums consistently replaced God or Yahweh with the word of the Lord so it’s not a separate person. They personified the word yet it was still God himself not another person
The Father is the only true God if The Son Who is YHWH is God in creation. If He isn't, then there is no witness in scriptures but only wishful thinking of Nelson like people.

The Father (transcendent God in light of YHWH becoming Yeshua) doesn't come and speak to creation independently without His WORD.

Read Ezk 43: 1-3

1 Afterward he brought me to the gate, even the gate that looketh toward the east:

2 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice was like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory.

3 And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city: and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face.

Are you familiar with the direction of The EAST?

Mat 1:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

The East direction speaks of Mount of Olives where Yeshua was nailed to the Tree.

The glory of the God of Israel is Jesus Himself.

The East of the garden of Eden was guarded by the flaming sword when Adam was driven out. Driven out where? Outside the camp where Christ died.

Heb 13:
12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

Adam was to seek His Savior outside the gate - East of the garden.

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

These scriptures are not given from thin air. YHWH as a Man is the glory of Transcendent God. You won't find God anywhere apart from Yeshua.

First reference given in scriptures about YHWH being a Man is in Gen 3:

Gen 3: 8 And they heard the voice of יהוה Elohim WALKING about in the garden in the cool of the day, and Aḏam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of יהוה Elohim among the trees of the garden.

YHWH walking?

But then there is Gen 1:2-3, 26 which drives the point.

You got to come out of your traditional teachings to really know your God and not surface reading. You just can't go beyond the surface and that's halting you to know your God.
 

Fred

Well-known member
But that the Son of God is "the beginning of the creation of God" is at Revelation 3:14.

Revelation 3:14 does not disprove Jesus is God.

Revelation 3:14
To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this (NASB)
Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood (NASB)

G. K. Beale: Despite what most commentators think, the titles in 3:14 do not link Jesus to the original creation, but are an interpretation of Jesus' resurrection drawn from 1:5. His resurrection is viewed as the beginning of the new creation, which is parallel with Col. 1:15b, 18b; cf. "first-born of all creation" (πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως) in Col. 1:15b, which may refer to the original creation in Genesis, and "the beginning, the firstborn from the dead" in v 18b (ἀρχή πρωτότοκος ἐκ τῶν νεκρῶν). The latter phrase refers to the resurrection as a new cosmic beginning (as evident from the link not only with Col. 1:15-17 but also with 1:19-20, 23). This is parallel with 2 Cor. 5:15, 17, where Paul understands Jesus' resurrection as bringing about a "new creation" (cf. the linking ὥστε ["so that"]; so also Eph. 1:20-23; 2:5-6, 10). The conclusion that the title "beginning of the creation of God" in 3:14 is an interpretive development of "firstborn of the dead" from 1:5 is confirmed by the observation that ἀρχή ("beginning") and πρωτότοκος ("firstborn") are generally related in meaning and especially are used together almost synonymously in Col. 1:18b (ἀρχή πρωτότοκος ἐκ τῶν νεκρῶν) of Christ's sovereign position in the new age, as a result of the resurrection. In addition, the titles of Christ in Rev. 22:13 use ἀρχή ("beginning") synonymously with πρῶτος ("first"). It is not inconceivable that ὁ ἀρχή ("the beginning") could be an interpretive development not only of ὁ πρωτότοκος ("the firstborn") in 1:5 but also of the immediately following phrase ὁ ἄρχων ("the ruler"). If so, it might be an interpretive pun: Hebrew resit ("beginning") and ros in the LXX (about 75 and 90 times respectively). That is, Christ as "firstborn from the dead and ruler of the kings of the earth" in 1:5 is interpreted in 3:14 as designating Christ as the sovereign inaugurator of the new creation. Consequently, the title "beginning of the creation of God" refers not to Jesus' sovereignty over the original creation but to his resurrection as demonstrating that he is the inauguration of and sovereign over the new creation. (The Book of Revelation: A Commentary on the Greek Text, page 298)
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
Revelation 3:14 does not disprove Jesus is God.

Revelation 3:14
To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this (NASB)
Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood (NASB)

G. K. Beale: Despite what most commentators think, the titles in 3:14 do not link Jesus to the original creation, but are an interpretation of Jesus' resurrection drawn from 1:5. His resurrection is viewed as the beginning of the new creation, which is parallel with Col. 1:15b, 18b; cf. "first-born of all creation" (πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως) in Col. 1:15b, which may refer to the original creation in Genesis, and "the beginning, the firstborn from the dead" in v 18b (ἀρχή πρωτότοκος ἐκ τῶν νεκρῶν). The latter phrase refers to the resurrection as a new cosmic beginning (as evident from the link not only with Col. 1:15-17 but also with 1:19-20, 23). This is parallel with 2 Cor. 5:15, 17, where Paul understands Jesus' resurrection as bringing about a "new creation" (cf. the linking ὥστε ["so that"]; so also Eph. 1:20-23; 2:5-6, 10). The conclusion that the title "beginning of the creation of God" in 3:14 is an interpretive development of "firstborn of the dead" from 1:5 is confirmed by the observation that ἀρχή ("beginning") and πρωτότοκος ("firstborn") are generally related in meaning and especially are used together almost synonymously in Col. 1:18b (ἀρχή πρωτότοκος ἐκ τῶν νεκρῶν) of Christ's sovereign position in the new age, as a result of the resurrection. In addition, the titles of Christ in Rev. 22:13 use ἀρχή ("beginning") synonymously with πρῶτος ("first"). It is not inconceivable that ὁ ἀρχή ("the beginning") could be an interpretive development not only of ὁ πρωτότοκος ("the firstborn") in 1:5 but also of the immediately following phrase ὁ ἄρχων ("the ruler"). If so, it might be an interpretive pun: Hebrew resit ("beginning") and ros in the LXX (about 75 and 90 times respectively). That is, Christ as "firstborn from the dead and ruler of the kings of the earth" in 1:5 is interpreted in 3:14 as designating Christ as the sovereign inaugurator of the new creation. Consequently, the title "beginning of the creation of God" refers not to Jesus' sovereignty over the original creation but to his resurrection as demonstrating that he is the inauguration of and sovereign over the new creation. (The Book of Revelation: A Commentary on the Greek Text, page 298)
Excellent
 

Anthony

Active member
Revelation 3:14 does not disprove Jesus is God.

Revelation 3:14
To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this (NASB)
Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood (NASB)

G. K. Beale: Despite what most commentators think, the titles in 3:14 do not link Jesus to the original creation, but are an interpretation of Jesus' resurrection drawn from 1:5. His resurrection is viewed as the beginning of the new creation, which is parallel with Col. 1:15b, 18b; cf. "first-born of all creation" (πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως) in Col. 1:15b, which may refer to the original creation in Genesis, and "the beginning, the firstborn from the dead" in v 18b (ἀρχή πρωτότοκος ἐκ τῶν νεκρῶν). The latter phrase refers to the resurrection as a new cosmic beginning (as evident from the link not only with Col. 1:15-17 but also with 1:19-20, 23). This is parallel with 2 Cor. 5:15, 17, where Paul understands Jesus' resurrection as bringing about a "new creation" (cf. the linking ὥστε ["so that"]; so also Eph. 1:20-23; 2:5-6, 10). The conclusion that the title "beginning of the creation of God" in 3:14 is an interpretive development of "firstborn of the dead" from 1:5 is confirmed by the observation that ἀρχή ("beginning") and πρωτότοκος ("firstborn") are generally related in meaning and especially are used together almost synonymously in Col. 1:18b (ἀρχή πρωτότοκος ἐκ τῶν νεκρῶν) of Christ's sovereign position in the new age, as a result of the resurrection. In addition, the titles of Christ in Rev. 22:13 use ἀρχή ("beginning") synonymously with πρῶτος ("first"). It is not inconceivable that ὁ ἀρχή ("the beginning") could be an interpretive development not only of ὁ πρωτότοκος ("the firstborn") in 1:5 but also of the immediately following phrase ὁ ἄρχων ("the ruler"). If so, it might be an interpretive pun: Hebrew resit ("beginning") and ros in the LXX (about 75 and 90 times respectively). That is, Christ as "firstborn from the dead and ruler of the kings of the earth" in 1:5 is interpreted in 3:14 as designating Christ as the sovereign inaugurator of the new creation. Consequently, the title "beginning of the creation of God" refers not to Jesus' sovereignty over the original creation but to his resurrection as demonstrating that he is the inauguration of and sovereign over the new creation. (The Book of Revelation: A Commentary on the Greek Text, page 298)
Firstborn relates to both old and new creation.

First, He came in mortal flesh - the first creation and again after His resurrection in glorified body as the firstborn of new creation.

Firstborn in Hebrew culture is the heir of father's inheritance.

Exod 4:22 states that Israel is the firstborn son of YHWH as The Father.

God was building His congregation as the heir to His promises. The Israel after the flesh failed to keep the Torah and it's Christ Who came representing and Mediating for Israel as the firstborn Son - Heir to His promises. What The Son did was to transition Israel from flesh to being in Spirit during which time there was falling and rising up of many in Israel.

Rom 8: 29 Because those whom He knew beforehand, He also ordained beforehand to be conformed to the likeness of His Son, for Him to be the first-born among many brothers.

Gal 4;
1 And I say, for as long as the heir is a child, he is no different from a slave, though he is master of all,

2 but is under guardians and trustees till the time prearranged by the father.

3 So we also, when we were children, were under the elementary matters of the world, being enslaved.

4 But when the completion of the time came, Elohim sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under Torah,

5 to redeem those who were under Torah, in order to receive the adoption as sons
.

The Deity of Messiah is not in question. But He has an intermittent role of being a Mediator where He calls all sons as His brethren (Heb 2:11-16). Messiah lays out the same principle - The First being the Last and The Last being The First - the humility that He went through because of immeasurable depth of His love for His people.
 
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