johnny guitar
Well-known member
Strawman. NO such thing as 1/3 of God, who is UNDIVIDED.
I don't deny John 17:3. But if you make this scripture a base for your overall doctrine of Messiah then you will be wrong all places. This is the problem for divisions in Christendom.
The Father (transcendent God) is the source and The Son is the means of creation/salvation/glory. They are in two dimensional operations of God. Not understanding this properly leads to confusions as we can see in these boards.
God who is transcendent is inaccessible directly to the creatures. Just crying out to the Father doesn't help anyone unless one recognises The Son Who reveals Him.
JNelson
Well-known member
yet you divide God when I ask who the God of Jesus is.
JNelson
Well-known member
It’s not just this one verse but all of scriptures that affirm the truth in this one verse. There’s only one true God , YHWH and he is the God and Father of Jesus and of the universe.
johnny guitar
Well-known member
False. I CANNOT divide God.
The Father is God, NOT 1/3 of God.
JNelson
Well-known member
Then Jesus must refer to the trinity when he says “my God”
johnny guitar
Well-known member
ANOTHER strawman.
He was referring to His God, NOT OUR God.
JNelson
Well-known member
If our God is not his God then you believe in multiple gods.
He is YHWH Who became our Yeshua -Isaiah 12:1-2.
There cannot be two Saviors. There cannot be two husbands. YHWH was not only The Father of Israel, He was also the Husband of Israel - in duality of powers.
No Father will give His divorced wife to His Son.
Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
You don't understand the Torah of marriage and divorce in the Old Covenant and the significance of the same Israel being married to Christ under New Covenant.
Yeshua has God as His Father because of His intermittent role of representing and Mediating for Israel. Israel is God's firstborn son - Exod 4:22.
Yeshua, The Son of God became The Firstborn Son in His representation - Rom 8:29; Hos 11:1; Mat 2:15; Heb 10:4-10. Read these referenced scriptures carefully.
Rom 9:
4 who are the children of Yisra’ĕl, to whom is the adoption, and the esteem, and the covenants, and the giving of the Torah, and the worship, and the promises,
5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Messiah according to the flesh, who is over all, Elohim-blessed forever. Amĕn.
It's God/YHWH taking the route of the fathers of Israel.
Also in Heb 2:11-16
The Sanctifier and those being sanctified are all of one Israel, Messiah having taken the route of Abraham's genealogy.
That's why our NT begins with the genealogy of Messiah, son of Abraham - though He was virgin born. In Torah, the marriage between Joseph and Mary is legitimate and though Yeshua was virgin born without consummation of marriage, He is still considered as the son of Joseph going back to David and then Abraham. In Luke's account going back to Adam (that's for a different reason which I will not discuss now).
The virgin birth is that proof which is winked away by many cultish groups in Christendom to strip from Messiah, His Deity. He is God in the form of a Man - Exod 15:3
3 “יהוה is a man of battle, יהוה is His Name.
Rev 19: 11 And I saw heaven opened, and suddenly there was a white horse, and he who sat on it is called Faithful and True. In righteousness he judges and makes war.
12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on his head are many crowns. He had a name written which no one knows but he himself.
13 He is clothed in a garment dipped in blood. His name is called “The Word of God.”
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The WORD is another subject but I am ready to discuss this topic to show that YHWH Who became our Yeshua is The same WORD in duality of powers revealed in the Old and New Testament.
Without understanding historical Israel, YHWH as The Father as well as The Husband to Israel one will be on the wrong path and salvation also in jeopardy. First need to understand the gospel message and the beneficiaries of that gospel message and how it was taught to Abraham first in relation to him being the father of many nations.
JNelson
Well-known member
So tell me, who is the God of Jesus?
No, it's His God as representative and Mediator of Israel - it's His intermittent role.
We can't individually say 'My Father' but 'our Father'. Only Yeshua The Messiah can say 'My Father' because He corporately represents Israel.
But His Deity is not in question because He as The Living WORD is God. Remember that written scripture is also called the Word of God - which is the content matter. Yeshua, though is the Living WORD took also part of the content matter in order to reveal the wisdom, power, humility and the glory of God.
Heb 10:
5 Therefore when he comes into the world, he says, “You didn’t desire sacrifice and offering, but you prepared a body for me.
6 You had no pleasure in whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come (in the scroll of the book it is written of me) to do your will, O God.’”
This is what all 'isms' of Christianity miss. The proponents of Christendom go out of the way to prove Yeshua's Deity or not Deity.
The Father and The Son relationship is not the same as human relationship - through procreation. It's a covenant relationship between God and Israel. Israel in flesh (old covenant) being transitioned to being in Spirit (new covenant) through the Only Spiritual Son of God. First, The Son of God needed to come in flesh born under Torah and then redeem Israel giving them the true sonship which makes them joint heirs with Messiah of all the promises of God.
Without Messiah, it's impossible to know The Father.
As the Ordinal First, He is The Father and as The Ordinal Last He is The Son.
Also remember that John doesn't teach two Person God in John 1:1. God and His Living WORD are One but operate in two dimensions. God is utter transcendent - invisible and unapproachable. His voice, character, wisdom, power, glory is His Living WORD. That's the reason for His distinct operations.
The same WORD was heard and seen (in Theophanies) in the Old Testament. No one has ever seen God (transcendent) and yet He was seen (His living Word) - no contradiction if we understand the two dimensions.
This isn't a answer but ignorance of the denomination under whose false teaching you are in.
See my answer to Johnny above.
Tanachreader
Well-known member
Moses did but not His face.
Exodus 33:20
And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Exodus 33:23
And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
johnny guitar
Well-known member
Only Jesus can say MY Father, since He is God The Son.
JNelson
Well-known member
Unlike your answers, mine come directly from scriptures, word for word.
John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
Rom. 15:6 that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Cor. 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,
2Cor. 11:31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, he who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying.
Eph. 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
Eph. 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him,
Col. 1:3 We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,
1Pet. 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Right on spot. The hinder part is The Messiah.
My goodness - you present only the part of scriptures. Don't you understand that as the Israel of God, He has God as His Father? That's His intermittent role as the firstborn son - Exod 4:22. Israel is the firstborn son. You don't even understand the title 'Father and Son'
No, this is false doctrine you are holding. He can say 'My Father' because He represents Israel as the firstborn son.
His Sonship has nothing to do with His being God The Son - this title doesn't exist in scriptures. Why did you skip Him saying 'My God'?
If He is God The Son (according to you), then this scripture can go over your head:
1Cor 15: 28 When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.
Once all have been adopted in the family as the sons of God (Father), then His Sonship is no longer required as He will be The God all in all. He will be seen face to face - Rev 21: 3-7.
As The Ordinal FIRST (Alpha) He is The Father and as The Ordinal LAST (Omega) He is The Son - duality of powers in One God.
Remember that God is still transcendent and also immanent in creation. So God is revealed to us in duality of powers.
I would like you to read these scriptures:
Exo 4:22 “And you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus said יהוה, “Yisra’ĕl is My son, My first-born,
Firstborn son in Hebrew culture inherits all father's promises and inheritance.
Hos 11: 1 “When Yisra’ĕl was a child, I loved him, and out of Mitsrayim I called My son.
How Messiah, The Son takes Israel's place:
Mat 2:15 and was there until the death of Herod; that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, “Out of Egypt I called my son.”
Then compare:
Rom 8: 29 For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Finally, the Bombshell:
Gal 4:
1 But I say that so long as the heir is a child, he is no different from a slave, though he is lord of all;
2 but is under guardians and stewards until the day appointed by the father.
3 So we also, when we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental principles of the world.
4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent out his Son, born to a woman, born under the law,
5 that he might redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons .
The Heir as a Child is Israel Whom The Mediator Redeems - as Kinsman Redeemer.
If you understand these basics you will have correct interpretation or else you will have all private interpretations.