Kenosis Heresy

JNelson

Well-known member
That's why I'm telling you that you are taking only part of the scriptures for your entire doctrine.
I take all of scriptures into account.
You got to understand these things my friend. If you are reading scriptures only on surface and speak against the Deity of Messiah, you have a blind spot not having received full revelation.
Yet the divine revelation Peter received about who Jesus is was that he is the Messiah, the son of the living God (Matt. 16:16-17) not that he was God incarnate or any of that nonsense. But you and trinitarians both claim to have some superior revelation of Jesus that wasn’t even revealed to Peter by God.
 

Anthony

Active member
I take all of scriptures into account.

Yet the divine revelation Peter received about who Jesus is was that he is the Messiah, the son of the living God (Matt. 16:16-17) not that he was God incarnate or any of that nonsense. But you and trinitarians both claim to have some superior revelation of Jesus that wasn’t even revealed to Peter by God.
No, you are not taking whole of scriptures but only part. It's The Son's manifestation which revealed God. God is seen in love and humility of The Son.

Satan is being revealed as a proud being to whom people of the flesh are conformed to vs God's love and humility in The Son to whose image His people are conformed to.

The true God is revealed by The Son in Himself. Those who can't recognise The Son, can't know the Father just as the majority of the Jews were accused of. What God is, The Living WORD is in creation. No one can fathom God Who is utter transcendent. Forget about calling on the Father, if you think Son is a created being. You just didn't get . true bread.
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
No, you are not taking whole of scriptures but only part. It's The Son's manifestation which revealed God. God is seen in love and humility of The Son.

Satan is being revealed as a proud being to whom people of the flesh are conformed to vs God's love and humility in The Son to whose image His people are conformed to.

The true God is revealed by The Son in Himself. Those who can't recognise The Son, can't know the Father just as the majority of the Jews were accused of. What God is, The Living WORD is in creation. No one can fathom God Who is utter transcendent. Forget about calling on the Father, if you think Son is a created being. You just didn't get . true bread.
Yes Scripture declares in so many passages the Deity of the Son. Colossians 1:19, 2:9, Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1, John 1:1, Matthew 1:23, John chapters 5 , 8 and 10, John 20:28, the entire book of Acts referencing the Lord, Romans 10:9-13 Jude 1:4, 1 John 5:20, Revelation 1-22 just to name a few off the top of my head not to mention all the OT prophecies about the Deity of the Messiah.

hope this helps !!!
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
I said:

In fact, if you search for the term "One God" you find that the Father is identified as the one God all by Himself.

You will need to be more specific. That text certainly does not prove otherwise.
And the Son is called the " One Lord " in many places using your logic that would eliminate the Father as being Lord ( YHWH ).

Thank you ! :)
 

JNelson

Well-known member
No, you are not taking whole of scriptures but only part. It's The Son's manifestation which revealed God. God is seen in love and humility of The Son.
I take all 31,000+ verses into account and yes the son revelas the Father.
Satan is being revealed as a proud being to whom people of the flesh are conformed to vs God's love and humility in The Son to whose image His people are conformed to.
Yes, we believers are confirmed to the image of his son
The true God is revealed by The Son
Correct. The true God, YHWH is revealed through his son and servant Jesus Christ, a man.
Those who can't recognise The Son, can't know the Father just as the majority of the Jews were accused of.
I agree
What God is, The Living WORD is in creation.
Yep, the word of God is living and sharper than any two edged sword.
No one can fathom God Who is utter transcendent. Forget about calling on the Father, if you think Son is a created being. You just didn't get . true bread.
Jesus Christ, the man, said he is the true bread and every single human being is a created being.
 

Anthony

Active member
I take all 31,000+ verses into account and yes the son revelas the Father.

Yes, we believers are confirmed to the image of his son

Correct. The true God, YHWH is revealed through his son and servant Jesus Christ, a man.

I agree

Yep, the word of God is living and sharper than any two edged sword.

Jesus Christ, the man, said he is the true bread and every single human being is a created being.
Jesus Christ wasn't a created being. To prove He is a created being you need to become YHWH as a Man in Exod 15:3 was a created being. So also Gen 3:8, Ezk 1:26-28, etc

Every human being is created but Yeshua's body had nothing to do with Mary. He could never say:

Joh 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

What did Paul say regarding all others:

Rom 1: 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Moreover He said:

Joh 6:63 It is the sphat quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

It's the Spirit which testifies of Him.
 

JNelson

Well-known member
Jesus Christ wasn't a created being. To prove He is a created being you need to become YHWH as a Man in Exod 15:3 was a created being. So also Gen 3:8, Ezk 1:26-28, etc
None of those verses say YHWH is a man.
Every human being is created but Yeshua's body had nothing to do with Mary.
God miraculously created Jesus in Mary’s womb and she was his actual mother. He came from the Davidic bloodline/seed and so he had her blood/DNA.
He could never say:

Joh 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Yes, he could because he didn’t mean this in a literal sense.
What did Paul say regarding all others:

Rom 1: 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
This has nothing to do with Jesus being a human being.
Moreover He said:

Joh 6:63 It is the sphat quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

It's the Spirit which testifies of Him.
Jesus words are spirit and life yep, because they are not his words but rather God’s words who gave them to him.

I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him.
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
Phil 2:5-8
In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
NIV

These translation capture the meaning of the text in its CONTEXT.


New International Version
rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

New Living Translation
Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form,

New King James Version
but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.

King James Bible
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:


Thayers Greek Lexicon
namely, τοῦ εἶναι ἴσα Θεῷ or τῆς μορφῆς τοῦ Θεοῦ, i. e. he laid aside equality with or the form of God (said of Christ), Philippians 2:7

Strongs Lexicon
From kenos; to make empty, i.e. (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify -- make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain.

Louw Nida Greek Lexicon
87.70
κενόωb: to completely remove or eliminate elements of high status or rank by eliminating all privileges or prerogatives associated with such status or rank.

What Paul makes very clear in this passage is that in addition to being God, He became man. The Incarnation was not a subtraction of His deity but an addition of humanity to His nature. This passage does not say Jesus gave up His deity but that He laid aside His rights as Deity, assuming the form of a servant in verse 7. The text says He was in the form of God or being in the very nature of God in 2:6. Just as He took upon Himself the "form of a servant" which is a servant by nature, so the "form of God" is God by nature. The word "being" from the phrase: being in the very form of God is a present active participle. This means "continued existence" as God. What Paul is actually saying here is Jesus has always been and still is in the "form of God". If you continue reading the passage Paul really drives this point home so that his readers have no doubt what he is trying to get across to the Philippians. Paul says that every knee will bow and will one day Confess Jesus is LORD. Paul takes the passage in Isaiah 45:23 which clearly refers to Yahweh a name used for God alone and says this of Jesus. The fulfillment of YHWH in Isaiah 45 is none other than Jesus who is God(Yahweh) in the flesh.

He self limited His divine prerogatives via the Incarnation as per Phil 2. In other words did not use them to His advantage but was in submission to the Father for 33 years to accomplish our salvation. All the FULLNESS of DEITY dwells in bodily form. Col 1:19;2:9. Jesus was and is fully God lacking nothing in His Deity.

Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Even through Christ existed in the form of God He did not regard equality with God something that He needed to reach for or grasp. Why because it was already His and never gave that up for a millisecond.

Paul is using syllogisms from the text in Philippians 2.

Just as the term “form of God” in verse six does not mean “less than God” because of the phrase “equality with God" in the prior passage.

It goes to reason in the same way with the 2 phrases in the “form of a servant” and in the “likeness of man” in verse seven do not mean that Jesus was any “less than human,” but instead means He was the same or “equal with all humans.”

That is how the passage reads and how it is to be understood in its " CONTEXT ".

In Colossians 1:19 and Colossians 2:9 the Apostle Paul said, For in HIM (CHRIST) ALL of the “ fullness of deity dwells bodily. “Did Paul use the word fullness there to mean partially? NO as Jesus did not empty Himself of His Deity. Jesus Divinity is FULL, complete lacking in nothing. The ENTIRE Fullness of Deity dwells (is present) bodily in Jesus.

This is how one exegetes the passage rather than using eisegesis- reading ones own thoughts and ideas into the text.

hope this helps !!!
@Howie agree or disagree?

why or why not ?
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
The Incarnation was not a subtraction of His deity but an addition of humanity to His nature

Still don't see how an addition to God (which is a logical impossibility) is laying aside something and becoming less.

That doesn't add up.

No pun intended.
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
Still don't see how an addition to God (which is a logical impossibility) is laying aside something and becoming less.

That doesn't add up.

No pun intended.
The Son took upon Himself a human nature . You don’t necessarily have to agree it was an addition but you would have to agree taking upon the nature of man permanently did something right ? What would you call that without using the word added ?
 

Howie

Well-known member
@Howie agree or disagree?

why or why not ?
@Chalcedon is running from his theological errors, which I continue pointing out, starting HERE, on the Trinity forum and continuing for two pages.

His two errors:

1) @Chalcedon does not understand that God is eternal, He has neither beginning, nor end and because of that, God's attributes are also eternal.

2) @Chalcedon believes the attribute of God's wrath WAS NOT AN ATTRIBUTE OF GOD UNTIL THE FALL, thereby making God MUTABLE.

Fell free to read and comment on @Chalcedon's error at the link above.
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
1 Cor 3:1
when I was with you I couldn’t talk to you as I would to spiritual people. I had to talk as though you belonged to this world or as though you were infants in Christ.
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
1 Cor 3:1
when I was with you I couldn’t talk to you as I would to spiritual people. I had to talk as though you belonged to this world or as though you were infants in Christ.

1 Cor 2:14
The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
 
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Anthony

Active member
None of those verses say YHWH is a man.

God miraculously created Jesus in Mary’s womb and she was his actual mother. He came from the Davidic bloodline/seed and so he had her blood/DNA.

Yes, he could because he didn’t mean this in a literal sense.

This has nothing to do with Jesus being a human being.

Jesus words are spirit and life yep, because they are not his words but rather God’s words who gave them to him.

I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him.
The difference between those who believe in true Messiah and false Messiah is well defined in scriptures. True Messiah's body was prepared from heaven while false messiah has body and blood from Mary. The false messiah can't save anyone. His fleshvis meat indeed and His blood is drink indeed to eternal life.

1John 5;
7 Because there are three who bear witness:

8 the Spirit, and the water, and the blood. And the three are in agreement.

You can't believe testimony of the Ruach of God because you have only testimony of men.

Heb 10:
5 Therefore, coming into the world, He says, “Slaughtering and meal offering You did not desire, but a body You have prepared for Me.

6 “In ascending offerings and offerings for sin You did not delight.

7 “Then I said, ‘See, I come – in the roll of the book it has been written concerning Me – to do Your desire, O Elohim.’ ”

That's what you are failing to see. YHWH made a decree in Psalm 2 and YHWH became the part of His own decree to save His people. That's how He came to fulfill what's written in the scrolls (volume of the book). There is no one of a created being coming to fulfill what's written in the scrolls pertaining to salvation.

PS 2:
6 ‘Truly it is I that have established My king Upon Zion, My holy mountain.’

7 I will tell of the decree: The LORD said unto me: ‘Thou art My son, This day have I begotten thee.

V6 spoken by YHWH which changes to The Son in the immediate v7.

Reconciling both Ps 2 and Heb 10 it shows that it's the same YHWH Who became our Yeshua

One cannot believe in YHWH apart from calling on the Name of Yeshua for salvation. There are no two Saviors but One.


Now to your misunderstood scripture:

Deut 18:15 “יהוה your Elohim shall raise up for you a Prophet b like me from your midst, from your brothers. Listen to Him,

The prophet from their own brethren?

That happened exactly after:

John 1'14 And the Word became flesh and pitched His tent among us, and we saw His esteem, esteem as of an only brought-forth of a father, complete in favour and truth.

The Living WORD was existing before He came in flesh.

His genealogy in Mattityahu 1 doesn't mean that Yoseph and Miriam were responsible for His birth. They had nothing to do with the coception except fulfilling the prophecy. By marriage, Yoseph is the legal father of Yeshua according to the Torah.

Luk 2:23 And when יהושע Himself began, He was about thirty years of age, being, as reckoned by law, son of Yosĕph, of Ěli,

About Mary's conception:

Mat 1: 18 Now the birth of Yeshua the Messiah was like this: After his mother, Miriam, was engaged to Joseph, before they came together, she was found pregnant by the Holy Spirit.

What do you understand about The Living WORD of Transcendent God?

Without the breath there is no life Transcendent God has His breath/own life and no WORD can proceed from God without His breath That's why The WORD was God because it's His own substance. The WORD when proceeded forth from God Who can't be seen, heard or approached unto has His own substance which is His living Word transited to become a means of creation and redemption. He was in form of Ruach in communication with creation. That's how YHWH communicated revealing Himself in duality of powers in prophetic scriptures - The Aleph and The Tav.

That's how He could be The Father as well as The Husband to Israel.

When the WORD was made flesh - (His permanent realised form that can be seen ), The Spirit became outward means of Anointing for Messiah. At the same time the children of Abraham became His Kins and called them His brethren (according to the Torah) - Heb 2:12-16. He became their Kinsman Redeemer. It's by His bowing down in humility that God was fully revealed.

It's total carnality of those who brush aside His Deity. The nature of scriptures is purely spiritual but carnal men just can't perceive.

The titles of The Father and The Son never existed before the world was. The World was to perceive the image of the invisible God as YHWH was revealed as a Man.


Gen 1:3 God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

Gen 1:26 And God said: ‘Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.

That's the two dimensions in which God is realised. The invisible image stooping down as The Son reveals Who God is


John 1:
2 He was in the beginning with Elohim.

3 All came to be through Him, a and without Him not even one came to be that came to be.

4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
@Chalcedon is running from his theological errors, which I continue pointing out, starting HERE, on the Trinity forum and continuing for two pages.

His two errors:

1) @Chalcedon does not understand that God is eternal, He has neither beginning, nor end and because of that, God's attributes are also eternal.

2) @Chalcedon believes the attribute of God's wrath WAS NOT AN ATTRIBUTE OF GOD UNTIL THE FALL, thereby making God MUTABLE.

Fell free to read and comment on @Chalcedon's error at the link above.
Its to hard for a babe to understand they choke on the meat.

Ephesians 4:14
Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming

1 Corinthians 3:1-3
Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual, but as worldly--as infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
 
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