Kenosis Heresy

[JNelson]

My goodness - you present only the part of scriptures.

How many verses is enough, 10? 100? 31,000?

Don't you understand that as the Israel of God, He has God as His Father? That's His intermittent role as the firstborn son - Exod 4:22. Israel is the firstborn son. You don't even understand the title 'Father and Son'

I understand the role of Father a son very well, and that Jesus is the firstborn son. What you fail to understand is that there’s only one God and Jesus’ God, the Father, is that one God.

 

[JNelson]

I would like you to read these scriptures:

Exo 4:22 “And you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus said יהוה, “Yisra’ĕl is My son, My first-born,

Firstborn son in Hebrew culture inherits all father's promises and inheritance.

Correct

Hos 11: 1 “When Yisra’ĕl was a child, I loved him, and out of Mitsrayim I called My son.


How Messiah, The Son takes Israel's place:

Mat 2:15 and was there until the death of Herod; that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, “Out of Egypt I called my son.”

Correct, though I would rather say Jesus represents Israel instead of he taking their place.

Then compare:

Rom 8: 29 For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Finally, the Bombshell:

Gal 4:
1 But I say that so long as the heir is a child, he is no different from a slave, though he is lord of all;

2 but is under guardians and stewards until the day appointed by the father.

3 So we also, when we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental principles of the world.

4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent out his Son, born to a woman, born under the law,

5 that he might redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons .

The Heir as a Child is Israel Whom The Mediator Redeems - as Kinsman Redeemer.

If you understand these basics you will have correct interpretation or else you will have all private interpretations.

Right, Jesus is the true heir and that all who believe in him are his brothers and heirs as well. Nothing here even hints at the false claim that Jesus is God.

 

[Anthony]

Correct

Correct, though I would rather say Jesus represents Israel instead of he taking their place.

Right, Jesus is the true heir and that all who believe in him are his brothers and heirs as well. Nothing here even hints at the false claim that Jesus is God.

My friend, Israel as the firstborn son already existed. Yeshua is not another Israel but represented and Mediated for Israel.

Read Gal 4:1-5 - Israel as a child is the heir. The child Israel is in flesh (fleshly ordinances of Torah). The One Who came to represent them is Spiritual to begin with. That's why He came in flesh - the same Torah of sin and death. It's Him Who transitioned Israel from flesh to being in Spirit. That's why Messiah is the 'firstborn' of both old and new creation because He caused the transition which wasn't possible for Israel. That's why He is the One Who gives Israel true sonship of God.

The natural is first then the spiritual. Messiah was Spiritual, YHWH from heaven. YHWH became our Yeshua.

Israel that was divorced by YHWH is the same in the NT the transitioned virgin wife of Messiah.

If you don't understand these basics, how will you understand the rest of scriptures. As The Ordinal First, He is The Father and as The Ordinal Last He is The Son (firstborn son - representing and Mediator).

 

[JNelson]

My friend, Israel as the firstborn son already existed. Yeshua is not another Israel but represented and Mediated for Israel.

Yes, that was my point because you said “the son takes Israel’s place”

Read Gal 4:1-5 - Israel as a child is the heir. The child Israel is in flesh (fleshly ordinances of Torah). The One Who came to represent them is Spiritual to begin with. That's why He came in flesh - the same Torah of sin and death. It's Him Who transitioned Israel from flesh to being in Spirit.

Jesus was not spiritual first then flesh. He was flesh then spiritual due to the resurrection and now all flesh can also obtain a spiritual body at the resurrection. That is what 1 Cor. 15:42-49 is about.

That's why Messiah is the 'firstborn' of both old and new creation because He caused the transition which wasn't possible for Israel. That's why He is the One Who gives Israel true sonship of God.

Jesus is the firstborn from the dead which is the new creation, the resurrection. He was not the firstborn twice.

The natural is first then the spiritual. Messiah was Spiritual, YHWH from heaven. YHWH became our Yeshua.

Read 1 Cor. 15:42-49 again, it clearly the natural first (earthly body) and the spiritual second (spiritual body).

Israel that was divorced by YHWH is the same in the NT the transitioned virgin wife of Messiah.

Jesus is the one that brought back God’s people to his God, YHWH.

If you don't understand these basics, how will you understand the rest of scriptures.

I understand the basics of scriptures and what you present is not biblical.

As The Ordinal First, He is The Father and as The Ordinal Last He is The Son (firstborn son - representing and Mediator).

Ordinal first/ordinal last? Here is an example of your unbiblical view

 

[Anthony]

How many verses is enough, 10? 100? 31,000?


I understand the role of Father a son very well, and that Jesus is the firstborn son. What you fail to understand is that there’s only one God and Jesus’ God, the Father, is that one God.

No, you don't understand! There cannot be a Father without The Son. These titles are of One God - The First and The Last. There cannot be a title of a Father without Israel being the firstborn son. First learn this covenant relationship and then you can know the true God being part of Israel

 

[Anthony]

Yes, that was my point because you said “the son takes Israel’s place”

Jesus was not spiritual first then flesh. He was flesh then spiritual due to the resurrection and now all flesh can also obtain a spiritual body at the resurrection. That is what 1 Cor. 15:42-49 is about.

Jesus is the firstborn from the dead which is the new creation, the resurrection. He was not the firstborn twice.

Read 1 Cor. 15:42-49 again, it clearly the natural first (earthly body) and the spiritual second (spiritual body).

Jesus is the one that brought back God’s people to his God, YHWH.

I understand the basics of scriptures and what you present is not biblical.

Ordinal first/ordinal last? Here is an example of your unbiblical view

Nonsense! Without Yeshua Messiah being Spiritual first there cannot be anyone saved. You don't even understand what salvation is. The Spiritual in flesh that Messiah was. The transition from flesh to spirit with regards to Israel is through His resurrection. He didn't need salvation because He is The Savior.

Time and again John tells the Jews that they believe in Him COMING in flesh - contrary to this is the spirit of Anti-Messiah. It's very important doctrine. The Spiritual (pre-existing) Living WORD coming in flesh and Tabernacling in midst of His people. The WORD is God - John 1:1c.

You don't know what you are seeking just like Phillip asked Messiah to show them the Father.

John 14:
8 Philip said to Him, “Master, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”

9 יהושע said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father, and how do you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

You Unitarians are blind. God Who is transcendent can't be reached, seen, approached or even heard by creatures. That's why we always had The Living WORD with us since the beginning. What Jews heard or even angels heard was The Living WORD in form of Spirit - at times in Theophanies to show He is in form of a Man. He revealed Himself in duality of powers in the OT until He manifested in flesh as The Son of God. He will in the age to come Permanently Tabernacle with His people as God - Rev 21-22.

Your present belief system makes your salvation in jeopardy.

 

[guest1]

Nonsense! Without Yeshua Messiah being Spiritual first there cannot be anyone saved. You don't even understand what salvation is. The Spiritual in flesh that Messiah was. The transition from flesh to spirit with regards to Israel is through His resurrection. He didn't need salvation because He is The Savior.

Time and again John tells the Jews that they believe in Him COMING in flesh - contrary to this is the spirit of Anti-Messiah. It's very important doctrine. The Spiritual (pre-existing) Living WORD coming in flesh and Tabernacling in midst of His people. The WORD is God - John 1:1c.

You don't know what you are seeking just like Phillip asked Messiah to show them the Father.

John 14:
8 Philip said to Him, “Master, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”

9 יהושע said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father, and how do you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

You Unitarians are blind. God Who is transcendent can't be reached, seen, approached or even heard by creatures. That's why we always had The Living WORD with us since the beginning. What Jews heard or even angels heard was The Living WORD in form of Spirit - at times in Theophanies to show He is in form of a Man. He revealed Himself in duality of powers in the OT until He manifested in flesh as The Son of God. He will in the age to come Permanently Tabernacle with His people as God - Rev 21-22.

Your present belief system makes your salvation in jeopardy.

ditto

 

[JNelson]

No, you don't understand!

Disagreeing and not understanding are two different things

There cannot be a Father without The Son.

Yea, and?

These titles are of One God - The First and The Last.

You have no biblical support for this, it’s just your opinion.

There cannot be a title of a Father without Israel being the firstborn son.

So did Israel exist eternally with their Father or did YHWH become their Father at a point in history?

 

[JNelson]

Nonsense! Without Yeshua Messiah being Spiritual first there cannot be anyone saved.

Jesus was the first to be raised with a spiritual body obtaining immortality and we who believe will likewise be raised with a spiritual immortal body.

You don't even understand what salvation is. The Spiritual in flesh that Messiah was.

Jesus was a man with an earthly body just like us first and after death he was raised with a spiritual body.

The transition from flesh to spirit with regards to Israel is through His resurrection. He didn't need salvation because He is The Savior.

Then why did Jesus pray and supplicate with tears and loud cries “to the one able to save him from death”?

Jesus was sinless so I’m not ssying Jesus needed salvation from sins but he was saved from death by being resurrected.

Time and again John tells the Jews that they believe in Him COMING in flesh -

This means Jesus was a human being not that a living spirit entered a body

John 14:
8 Philip said to Him, “Master, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”

9 יהושע said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father, and how do you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

You Unitarians are blind.

You’re the ones who are blind. You need to twist and distort scriptures to come up with your false teachings that was never taught by Jesus or the apostles.

Your present belief system makes your salvation in jeopardy.

Right, because believing in the same God and Father of Jesus Christ puts my salvation in jeopardy… I choose to believe scriptures not you.

 

[guest1]

Jesus was a man with an earthly body just like us first and after death he was raised with a spiritual body.

Does Jesus now have a human body ?

What does Jesus "spiritual " body consist of ?

Was Jesus body that was raised from the dead a real, tangible, physical , material body ?

What did Jesus mean when He said touch Me for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have ? Put your finger into My side.

 

[JNelson]

Does Jesus now have a human body ?

Yes

What does Jesus "spiritual " body consist of ?

“It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body… For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality”

Spiritual body here doesn’t mean its a non-physical body but rather it’s a glorified, immortal physical body.

Was Jesus body that was raised from the dead a real, tangible, physical , material body ?

Yes

What did Jesus mean when He said touch Me for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have ? Put your finger into My side.

He meant he had a real physical body of flesh and bone.

 

[Anthony]

Disagreeing and not understanding are two different things

Yea, and?

You have no biblical support for this, it’s just your opinion.

So did Israel exist eternally with their Father or did YHWH become their Father at a point in history?

There is lots of Biblical support for the Deity of Messiah which you just can't see through.

There is no Father without The Son ! And your reply was "Yea and?". This is not a proper answer but a twist.

Israel wasn't existing eternally - so is the title 'Father'. It's wasn't existing eternally. It didn't exist before Exod 4:22. Let me know if you find.

The title Son was also not eternally existing. These titles have to do only with the covenant relationship between God and Israel.

The Son Whom you regard as non-Deity and The Father Whom you call Deity operate in two dimensions - Transcendence and Immanent creation.

That's why we have these scriptures which you want to brush aside:

Heb 1:2 in these last days has spoken to us in the Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds (ages).

John 1:3 All things were made through him, and apart from him nothing was made that has been made.

Col 1:16 Because in Him were created all that are in the heavens and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or rulerships or principalities or authorities – all have been created through Him and for Him.

Transcendent God Who can't be seen, heard or approached is the source and The WORD is The Means. Not two Gods but One in two different dimensions.

God with Whom The WORD was is not the context of John's (a Jew) writing. The WORD is the context from the beginning according to his account.

The Living WORD carries the will, power, wisdom, character, humility, salvation, etc from transcendent God. What is demonstrated by The Living WORD is the same true of the Transcendent God. That's why The WORD was God (and not a god). Unitarians are looking for strawman because there is no definite article before God in John 1:1c. If there was a definite article before God, it would account to two Gods which is impossible- nor can be 'a god' before God as it's clear in scriptures. JW have also created strawman. Scriptures can be only understood by spiritual discernment - comparing scripture with scripture.

The Living WORD when proceeded forth from transcendent God, He was in form of Spirit. That's why Spirit is called Spirit of Life just as The Word is called The Word of Life. The Spirit is the Breath of God - life of God.

It's only when The Son manifested in flesh that we understood Who the true God is because it's The Son Who reveals the true God.

1John 5: 20 We know that the Son of God has come, and has given us an understanding, that we know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Yeshua the Messiah. This is the true God and eternal life.

It was impossible for anyone to know the true God apart from The Son's manifestation.

He is that true God when He made that distinction by being The Way, the Truth and The Life.

If anyone thinks he believes in God must first believe in The Son. That's why The Spirit of The Son was in the OT prophets when they prophesied to God's people Israel. He became the cause of falling and rising of many in Israel.

You in reality by denying the Deity of The Son are denying the Deity of The Father. They aren't two Gods but One.

 

[JNelson]

There is lots of Biblical support for the Deity of Messiah which you just can't see through.

No, there isn’t. There’s only one true God and he is the God and Father of Jesus Christ, a human being.

There is no Father without The Son ! And your reply was "Yea and?". This is not a proper answer but a twist.

How is it a twist? Before one becomes a father he isn’t a father. YHWH wasn’t Jesus’ Father until Jesus was conceived/born hence the future tense of the prophecy as we see in 2 Sam. 7:14.

Israel wasn't existing eternally - so is the title 'Father'. It's wasn't existing eternally. It didn't exist before Exod 4:22. Let me know if you find.

The title Son was also not eternally existing. These titles have to do only with the covenant relationship between God and Israel.

So we at least agree that the titles father and son were not eternal.

The Son Whom you regard as non-Deity and The Father Whom you call Deity operate in two dimensions - Transcendence and Immanent creation.

The son is a created being and the Father, his God, is the one who created him.

That's why we have these scriptures which you want to brush aside:

Calumny

John 1:3 All things were made through him, and apart from him nothing was made that has been made.

This isn’t about Jesus.

Heb 1:2 in these last days has spoken to us in the Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds (ages).

Col 1:16 Because in Him were created all that are in the heavens and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or rulerships or principalities or authorities – all have been created through Him and for Him.

This isn’t about the Genesis creation.

- Col. 1 Is Not About The Genesis Creation - Change My Mind

If we simply compare what Paul wrote in Eph 1 and Col 1 there’s no denying he’s writing about the same thing in both epistles. Both take place after the resurrection, not the genesis creation. Here are just some of the many similarities and note that with a couple exceptions, they flow in almost...

forums.carm.org

God with Whom The WORD was is not the context of John's (a Jew) writing. The WORD is the context from the beginning according to his account.

The word of God is what’s being personified in John 1.

The Living WORD carries the will, power, wisdom, character, humility, salvation, etc from transcendent God. What is demonstrated by The Living WORD is the same true of the Transcendent God. That's why The WORD was God (and not a god). Unitarians are looking for strawman because there is no definite article before God in John 1:1c. If there was a definite article before God, it would account to two Gods which is impossible- nor can be 'a god' before God as it's clear in scriptures. JW have also created strawman. Scriptures can be only understood by spiritual discernment - comparing scripture with scripture.

I never said there was a definite article nor that it says “a god”. I’m not a JW btw.

It's only when The Son manifested in flesh that we understood Who the true God is because it's The Son Who reveals the true God.

The son, a human being, revealed the true God because the true God dwelt in him.

1John 5: 20 We know that the Son of God has come, and has given us an understanding, that we know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Yeshua the Messiah. This is the true God and eternal life.

Correct, the son came so that we can know the only true God, YHWH, the Father.

It was impossible for anyone to know the true God apart from The Son.

I agree

He is that true God when He made that distinction by being The Way, the Truth and The Life.

False, the true God is the Father

If anyone thinks he believes in God must first believe in The Son.

Correct.

That's why The Spirit of The Son was in the OT prophets when they prophesied to God's people Israel. He became the cause of falling and rising of many in Israel.

That isn’t what the spirit of Christ in the OT means, it simply means that the prophets prophesied about the coming Messiah.

You in reality by denying the Deity of The Son are denying the Deity of The Father.

The Father is God and Jesus is a human being. We don’t get to the father except through our mediator, the MAN Christ Jesus. This is what scriptures plainly teaches.

They aren't two Gods but One.

Jesus has a God and his God is the only true God.

 

[Anthony]

Disagreeing and not understanding are two different things

Yea, and?

You have no biblical support for this, it’s just your opinion.

So did Israel exist eternally with their Father or did YHWH become their Father at a point in history?

There is lots of Biblical support for the Deity of Messiah which you just can't see through.

There is no Father without The Son ! And your reply was "Yea and?". This is not a proper answer but a twist.

Israel wasn't existing eternally - so is the title 'Father'. It's wasn't existing eternally. It didn't exist before Exod 4:22. Let me know if you find.

The title Son was also not eternally existing. These titles have to do only with the covenant relationship between God and Israel.

The Son Whom you regard as non-Deity and The Father Whom you call Deity operate in two dimensions - Transcendence and Immanent creation.

That's why we have these scriptures which you want to brush aside:

Heb 1:2 in these last days has spoken to us in the Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds (ages).

John 1:3 All things were made through him, and apart from him nothing was made that has been made.

Col 1:16 Because in Him were created all that are in the heavens and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or rulerships or principalities or authorities – all have been created through Him and for Him.

Transcendent God Who can't be seen, heard or approached is the source and The WORD is The Means. Not two Gods but One in two different dimensions.

God with Whom The WORD was is not the context of John's (a Jew) writing. The WORD is the context from the beginning according to his account.

The Living WORD carries the will, power, wisdom, character, humility, salvation, etc from transcendent God. What is demonstrated by The Living WORD is the same true of the Transcendent God. That's why The WORD was God (and not a god). Unitarians are looking for strawman because there is no definite article before God in John 1:1c. If there was a definite article before God, it would account to two Gods which is impossible- nor can be 'a god' before God as it's clear in scriptures. JW have also created strawman. Scriptures can be only understood by spiritual discernment - comparing scripture with scripture.

The Living WORD when proceeded forth from transcendent God, He was in form of Spirit. That's why Spirit is called Spirit of Life just as The Word is called The Word of Life. The Spirit is the Breath of God - life of God.

It's only when The Son manifested in flesh that we understood Who the true God is because it's The Son Who reveals the true God.

1John 5: 20 We know that the Son of God has come, and has given us an understanding, that we know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Yeshua the Messiah. This is the true God and eternal life.

It was impossible for anyone to know the true God apart from The Son's manifestation.

He is that true God when He made that distinction by being The Way, the Truth and The Life.

If anyone thinks he believes in God must first believe in The Son. That's why The Spirit of The Son was in the OT prophets when they prophesied to God's people Israel. He became the cause of falling and rising of many in Israel.

You in reality by denying the Deity of The Son are denying the Deity of The Father. They aren't two Gods but One.

No, there isn’t. There’s only one true God and he is the God and Father of Jesus Christ, a human being.

How is it a twist? Before one becomes a father he isn’t a father. YHWH wasn’t Jesus’ Father until Jesus was conceived/born hence the future tense of the prophecy as we see in 2 Sam. 7:14.

So we at least agree that the titles father and son were not eternal.

The son is a created being and the Father, his God, is the one who created him.

Calumny

This isn’t about Jesus.

This isn’t about the Genesis creation.

- Col. 1 Is Not About The Genesis Creation - Change My Mind

If we simply compare what Paul wrote in Eph 1 and Col 1 there’s no denying he’s writing about the same thing in both epistles. Both take place after the resurrection, not the genesis creation. Here are just some of the many similarities and note that with a couple exceptions, they flow in almost...

forums.carm.org

The word of God is what’s being personified in John 1.

I never said there was a definite article nor that it says “a god”. I’m not a JW btw.

The son, a human being, revealed the true God because the true God dwelt in him.

Correct, the son came so that we can know the only true God, YHWH, the Father.

I agree

False, the true God is the Father

Correct.

That isn’t what the spirit of Christ in the OT means, it simply means that the prophets prophesied about the coming Messiah.

The Father is God and Jesus is a human being. We don’t get to the father except through our mediator, the MAN Christ Jesus. This is what scriptures plainly teaches.

Jesus has a God and his God is the only true God.

Tell that to Moses - Exod 15:3

 

[Anthony]

Jesus was the first to be raised with a spiritual body obtaining immortality and we who believe will likewise be raised with a spiritual immortal body.

Jesus was a man with an earthly body just like us first and after death he was raised with a spiritual body.

Then why did Jesus pray and supplicate with tears and loud cries “to the one able to save him from death”?

Jesus was sinless so I’m not ssying Jesus needed salvation from sins but he was saved from death by being resurrected.

This means Jesus was a human being not that a living spirit entered a body

You’re the ones who are blind. You need to twist and distort scriptures to come up with your false teachings that was never taught by Jesus or the apostles.

Right, because believing in the same God and Father of Jesus Christ puts my salvation in jeopardy… I choose to believe scriptures not you.

You can't believe in the Father just as The Son accused the Jews:

John 8:42 Therefore Yeshua said to them, “If God were your father, you would love me, for I came out and have come from God. For I have not come of myself, but he sent me.

As I told, you got things very wrong which jeopardizes your salvation. The natural is first for God's people and not for Messiah. He is YHWH from heaven came in flesh:

1Cor 15:
46 The spiritual, however, was not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.

47 The first man was of the earth, earthy; the second Man is the Master from heaven.

The first man had no choice as also all of mankind are born flesh. But Messiah (YHWH) from heaven had a choice and He chose to come as the Seed of Abraham:

Heb 2: 11 For both he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one, for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brothers,

14 Since then the children (of Abraham) have shared in flesh and blood, he also himself in the same way partook of the same, that through death he might bring to nothing him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

16 For, doubtless, He does not take hold of messengers, but He does take hold of the seed of Aḇraham.

See you have to sweep these scriptures under the carpet to hold on to your false theory that He had no choice likeall human beings.

1John 4: 2 By this you know the Spirit of Elohim: Every spirit that confesses that Yashua Messiah has come in the flesh is of Elohim,

God is revealed in two dimensions - Transcendence and Immanent creation. That's why John makes a distinction between God and WORD in the beginning. The WORD was God - in immanent creation.

John understood this as time and again he says no one has ever seen God at any time. He is referring to Transcendent God. Paul says that He is in unapproachable light Whom no one has seen nor can see. Yeshua told the Jews that they never seen His form nor heard His voice. Yet OT prophets have seen YHWH. OT scriptures also reveal YHWH in duality of powers - as invisible and also as a Man.

The NT authors also point out that Spirit of Messiah was in the OT prophets. Moses suffered with the people of God as the reproaches of Messiah - Heb 11:26.

Paul warns Corinthians not to tempt Messiah as the OT fathers did. He also told that The Rock of Israel (YHWH) followed them was Messiah.

If The Word didn't come in flesh as The Son, the Transcendent God would not be made known. If He remained as transcendent God then no one would ever know the true God. He had to make Himself The Way, The Truth and The Life in order to reveal the true God to His people. This is the thing not understood by Unitarians and JW. They believe YHWH like a Muslim Allah who has no sense of love, humility and glory - but only a god of judgement.

John 1:5:20 reveals that by the manifestation of The Son, true God is revealed and not that He is not the true God Himself.

What you read is only surface level meaning not able to discern as unto eating meat but only on milk. If Messiah is not God then the Father too is automatically rejected because He spoke as The Father in the OT. You couldn't have heard transcendent God's voice.

 

[JNelson]

You can't believe in the Father just as The Son accused the Jews:

John 8:42 Therefore Yeshua said to them, “If God were your father, you would love me, for I came out and have come from God. For I have not come of myself, but he sent me.

As I told, you got things very wrong which jeopardizes your salvation. The natural is first for God's people and not for Messiah. He is YHWH from heaven came in flesh:

1Cor 15:
46 The spiritual, however, was not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.

47 The first man was of the earth, earthy; the second Man is the Master from heaven.

The first man had no choice as also all of mankind are born flesh. But Messiah (YHWH) from heaven had a choice and He chose to come as the Seed of Abraham:

Heb 2: 11 For both he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one, for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brothers,

14 Since then the children (of Abraham) have shared in flesh and blood, he also himself in the same way partook of the same, that through death he might bring to nothing him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

16 For, doubtless, He does not take hold of messengers, but He does take hold of the seed of Aḇraham.

See you have to sweep these scriptures under the carpet to hold on to your false theory that He had no choice likeall human beings.

1John 4: 2 By this you know the Spirit of Elohim: Every spirit that confesses that Yashua Messiah has come in the flesh is of Elohim,

God is revealed in two dimensions - Transcendence and Immanent creation. That's why John makes a distinction between God and WORD in the beginning. The WORD was God - in immanent creation.

John understood this as time and again he says no one has ever seen God at any time. He is referring to Transcendent God. Paul says that He is in unapproachable light Whom no one has seen nor can see. Yeshua told the Jews that they never seen His form nor heard His voice. Yet OT prophets have seen YHWH. OT scriptures also reveal YHWH in duality of powers - as invisible and also as a Man.

The NT authors also point out that Spirit of Messiah was in the OT prophets. Moses suffered with the people of God as the reproaches of Messiah - Heb 11:26.

Paul warns Corinthians not to tempt Messiah as the OT fathers did. He also told that The Rock of Israel (YHWH) followed them was Messiah.

If The Word didn't come in flesh as The Son, the Transcendent God would not be made known. If He remained as transcendent God then no one would ever know the true God. He had to make Himself The Way, The Truth and The Life in order to reveal the true God to His people. This is the thing not understood by Unitarians and JW. They believe YHWH like a Muslim Allah who has no sense of love, humility and glory - but only a god of judgement.

John 1:5:20 reveals that by the manifestation of The Son, true God is revealed and not that He is not the true God Himself.

What you read is only surface level meaning not able to discern as unto eating meat but only on milk. If Messiah is not God then the Father too is automatically rejected because He spoke as The Father in the OT. You couldn't have heard transcendent God's voice.

Tell that to Jesus - John 8:40.

 

[Tanachreader]

Tell that to Jesus - John 8:40.

54 My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word.56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

57“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

58“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

 

[Anthony]

Tell that to Jesus - John 8:40.

That's why I'm telling you that you are taking only part of the scriptures for your entire doctrine. There is no doubt that Yeshua's God is the Father. But must understand how He became His Father. You got to reconcile all scriptures and not throw some in dust bin.

It's because The Living WORD bent down in humility that God was revealed to His people. If He remained as He was, God would remain a mystery. This is what you fail to see.

1John 5: 20 We know that the Son of God has come, and has given us an understanding, that we know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Yeshua the Messiah. This is the true God and eternal life.

Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

The Spirit testifies of The Son and The Son reveals the Father.

The Sonship of Yeshua will end when death has been totally conquered on the last day and He will Tabernacle among His glorified people bodily and thus His people will see His face and they will be His sons:

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Yeshua was born during the feast of Tabernacles as The WORD came to be in flesh and Tabernacles in midst of Israel.

On the last day of the feast of Tabernacles, Yeshua uttered these words:

John 7:37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast note, Yeshua stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink!

He repeats the same in Rev 21:6

6 He said to me, “I am the Alef and the Tav, the Beginning and the End. I will give freely to him who is thirsty from the spring of the water of life.

7 He who overcomes, I will give him these things. I will be his God, and he will be my son.

He born during the feast of Tabernacles. He Tabernacles in mortal flesh (Paul calls His flesh is the veil of the most holy place) and shed mortality on behalf of His people and now clothed in immortality. He is sitting at the Right Hand of God until all His enemies are made His footstool - the last enemy is the death - 1Cor 15.

These feasts of Israel are fulfilled: Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits and Shavout/Pentecost.

The remaining feasts will be fulfilled by His timetable are: Trumpets, Yom Kipor/Day of Atonement and Tabernacles.

The last Trumpet will be sounded and His sanctified people (represented by the feast of Atonement) will be gathered at the time of the feast of Tabernacles - in one go.

He will clothe His sanctified people with heavenly tabernacle - immortality.

You got to understand these things my friend. If you are reading scriptures only on surface and speak against the Deity of Messiah, you have a blind spot not having received full revelation. The children need to grow or else they weren't saved in the first place.

 

[JNelson]

That's why I'm telling you that you are taking only part of the scriptures for your entire doctrine.

I take all of scriptures into account.

You got to understand these things my friend. If you are reading scriptures only on surface and speak against the Deity of Messiah, you have a blind spot not having received full revelation.

Yet the divine revelation Peter received about who Jesus is was that he is the Messiah, the son of the living God (Matt. 16:16-17) not that he was God incarnate or any of that nonsense. But you and trinitarians both claim to have some superior revelation of Jesus that wasn’t even revealed to Peter by God.

 

[Anthony]

I take all of scriptures into account.

Yet the divine revelation Peter received about who Jesus is was that he is the Messiah, the son of the living God (Matt. 16:16-17) not that he was God incarnate or any of that nonsense. But you and trinitarians both claim to have some superior revelation of Jesus that wasn’t even revealed to Peter by God.

No, you are not taking whole of scriptures but only part. It's The Son's manifestation which revealed God. God is seen in love and humility of The Son.

Satan is being revealed as a proud being to whom people of the flesh are conformed to vs God's love and humility in The Son to whose image His people are conformed to.

The true God is revealed by The Son in Himself. Those who can't recognise The Son, can't know the Father just as the majority of the Jews were accused of. What God is, The Living WORD is in creation. No one can fathom God Who is utter transcendent. Forget about calling on the Father, if you think Son is a created being. You just didn't get . true bread.