Killing Contention: An analogy to win spiritual warfare

Aaron32

Well-known member
By profession I'm a business analyst and I love studying economics and trying to understand the global economy, fiscal policy, and the relationship between the two. I also enjoy discussions on this board. I found an analogy that is a mix of both that seems relevant to this board:

Currency = ideas & beliefs
When we share ideas and beliefs, we share a currency.
People may have opposing beliefs, some people have no use for our currency. Regardless of how valuable our currency seems to us, other people simply don't find the need for it, or want it. The person that creates the broadest of ideas, gains more power and influence. People try and devalue other people's currency because they see it as a threat, thinking - if people are using your currency they are not using my currency.

God's truth = Gold
The truth of God is the sovereign currency. Each of our own currency is evaluated to God's currency. We might look at it as comparing our fiat currency to the gold standard. Though governments may surpress the true value of gold, when faith in all currencies for exchange are lost, all that matters is the gold we own.

Each of us might think we own gold, or a debt note equivalent to gold. The true gospel is the gold. But even if we have gold, or lack thereof, that does not make us better or worse than anyone else. A TRUE disciple of Christ treats everyone the same - see James 2.

The real battle
Ephesians 6:
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand

To my fellow more Mormons:
It is not difficult to link the symbolism of temple clothing to the armor of God. If you have been to the temple, and profess that they are required for eternal salvation, believing your currency is the gold standard, you will be judged more harshly than your adversaries on this board.

Helaman 7:
23 For behold, thus saith the Lord: I will not show unto the wicked of my strength, to one more than the other, save it be unto those who repent of their sins, and hearken unto my words. Now therefore, I would that ye should behold, my brethren, that it shall be better for the Lamanites than for you except ye shall repent.
24 For behold, they are more righteous than you, for they have not sinned against that great knowledge which ye have received; therefore the Lord will be merciful unto them; yea, he will lengthen out their days and increase their seed, even when thou shalt be utterly destroyed except thou shalt repent.

Personal note
I confess, I have been the most guilty of contention in times past. Yet, I am trying to forsake my past behavior.
I suck at validating others, and can get very much into the attitude of "facts don't care about your feelings", but when arguments seem to get petty, that's when I walk away. It's ok the shake your proverbial garments, and dust off your proverbial shoes, and consider your duty fulfilled, and walk away.
 
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People may have opposing beliefs, some people have no use for our currency
It goes beyond having now use. Our currency is just as good as theirs if not better but they argue it's counterfeit. That is abuse, plain and simple.
The person that creates the broadest of ideas, gains more power and influence
Well, that helps me understand your position of argument but when it comes to religion, that is simply not true. Only those with the truth have power. Influence is not ours to control.
The truth of God is the sovereign currency.
True, but all this contradicts your broad ideas comment. If the last statement is true, then only those with the sovereign currency have power. Everyone else is trying to get others to accept their counterfeit currency
profess that they are required for eternal salvation
Well, I don't know about others but I don't profess and never have professed that temple clothes are required for salvation.
I confess, I have been the most guilty of contention in times past. Yet, I am trying to forsake my past behavior.
Good for you. The only approach I can hope for is a decent argument from our critics. Outside of that (which so far none of that has happened), I can correct the misunderstanding of the beliefs I hold which I believe are fostered by the doctrines of our church. On occasion, I will expound on those beliefs to provide a reason or an explanation about how they connect to the scriptures and prophets both past and present. IMO, what we get here is vitriol born out of the blind leading the blind. For that reason, I don't see how we can make any progress with the vocal critics on this message board. As long as this remains a public forum, I intend to continue to voice my objections to the false propaganda that gets published here.

I'm not here to convert anyone. I'm only here to defend what I believe. You will not find me arguing in other forums on this site. Does this create contention? Sure it does but I don't believe that's an issue I can do anything about. It is the style this forum fosters.
 
It goes beyond having now use. Our currency is just as good as theirs if not better but they argue it's counterfeit. That is abuse, plain and simple.
I agree. Our currency is just as good, if not better. Our beliefs transcend their beliefs.
But think about it...look the quote in my signature. What is the real problem? If a blind person, tells me my clothes don't match, I don't really care about their opinion.
If I was giving away authenticated pure gold coins, and someone thought they were counterfeit, would I be upset if they are reject my offering? Probably not.
I might feel sorry for them. I might want to know what they're not understanding, but I wouldn't consider it abuse.
Well, that helps me understand your position of argument but when it comes to religion, that is simply not true. Only those with the truth have power. Influence is not ours to control.
I disagree. Satan has great power in this world, and he is the father of lies.
True, but all this contradicts your broad ideas comment. If the last statement is true, then only those with the sovereign currency have power. Everyone else is trying to get others to accept their counterfeit currency
This is true in the eternal perspective. At present, we're still battling the great and spacious building.
Well, I don't know about others but I don't profess and never have professed that temple clothes are required for salvation.
I didn't say that. I said they are symbolic for the armor of God, to act as a shield and a protection.
Good for you. The only approach I can hope for is a decent argument from our critics. Outside of that (which so far none of that has happened), I can correct the misunderstanding of the beliefs I hold which I believe are fostered by the doctrines of our church. On occasion, I will expound on those beliefs to provide a reason or an explanation about how they connect to the scriptures and prophets both past and present. IMO, what we get here is vitriol born out of the blind leading the blind. For that reason, I don't see how we can make any progress with the vocal critics on this message board. As long as this remains a public forum, I intend to continue to voice my objections to the false propaganda that gets published here.

I'm not here to convert anyone. I'm only here to defend what I believe. You will not find me arguing in other forums on this site. Does this create contention? Sure it does but I don't believe that's an issue I can do anything about. It is the style this forum fosters.
It sounds like we're here for the same reason. Yet, I've walked inside a Christian church and seen the resources they are given to understand our beliefs. (Talk about being sold a bag of goods.) Thus, all we can do is validate them on what we agree upon, and generally, in my experience, takes the vitriol away.
 
I disagree. Satan has great power in this world, and he is the father of lies.
Are you saying that Satan doesn't know the truth? Do you think he doesn't have it? It is one thing to be duped by Satan and believe something is true that isn't and it's another thing to know what's true and intentionally misdirect people from finding truth. The power is in knowing the truth whether your actions are good or evil doesn't change the power one holds by knowing truth.
It sounds like we're here for the same reason.
That may be true, but we butt heads on some pretty basic principles. I accept that no everyone agrees with my perspective and as long as we know we're just speculating, that shouldn't cause an issue.
Yet, I've walked inside a Christian church and seen the resources they are given to understand our beliefs.
I'm not sure how that changes anything
(Talk about being sold a bag of goods.)
that wasn't me who said you have been sold a bag of goods.
Thus, all we can do is validate them on what we agree upon
I have no problem with doing that, but; they apparently do.
 
Are you saying that Satan doesn't know the truth? Do you think he doesn't have it? It is one thing to be duped by Satan and believe something is true that isn't and it's another thing to know what's true and intentionally misdirect people from finding truth. The power is in knowing the truth whether your actions are good or evil doesn't change the power one holds by knowing truth.
Ok. Let's go back to what I said in the OP -
"The person that creates the broadest of ideas, gains more power and influence."
Can a person selling hype for an MLM have power and influence getting others even though it's a complete sham?
Seriously, dude, are you disagreeing for the sake of being disagreeable?

That may be true, but we butt heads on some pretty basic principles. I accept that no everyone agrees with my perspective and as long as we know we're just speculating, that shouldn't cause an issue.
Agreed.
I'm not sure how that changes anything
Because there's a difference between a Nephite dissenter and a duped Lamanite.
I have no problem with doing that, but; they apparently do.
Ok. Cool. So if that's the case, then there's really no need for us to be upset, and no justification to act anything less than charitable. Agreed?
 
Can a person selling hype for an MLM have power
I hope u understand that I don't agree with ur analogy. It's pointless to pursue it.
Seriously, dude, are you disagreeing for the sake of being disagreeable?
Seriously, dude, do you understand that I don't agree with your analogy?
Because there's a difference between a Nephite dissenter and a duped Lamanite
That really doesn't help.
Ok. Cool. So if that's the case, then there's really no need for us to be upset
I don't know who us is in that statement. I'm not upset. I just disagree with you.
no justification to act anything less than charitable
I don't see justification for what I do. I stated why I'm here and I do what I said I would be doing. When we have a level-headed argument coming from our critics I'll be happy to address their questions. Until then it's just a matter of protecting myself from getting covered in so much dung.
 
I hope u understand that I don't agree with ur analogy. It's pointless to pursue it.

Seriously, dude, do you understand that I don't agree with your analogy?
Ok. You've just shifted the goal posts. No where in your initial response did you disagree my analogy. In fact, you used my analogy to state why THEY we're wrong, classifying it as "abuse". So, I guess we're done here?
That really doesn't help.
Lamanites were stirred up to anger by the Nephite dissenters. They were pawns.
Nephites considered Lamanites their brethren, just lost and ignorant due to the traditions they were raised in. Nephite dissenters we're in full rebellion.
Likewise, protestant Christians are stirred up to anger against us because of anti-mormon literature. Anti-mormon literature comes from our dissenters. Thus, I don't treat ravermin (whatever his name is) or lastdaysbelier like I do Janice or Magdalena.
By reacting with venom to a protestant's ignorant state, it gives the impression that we're guilty as charged, and confirm their bias.
I don't know who us is in that statement. I'm not upset. I just disagree with you.
The purpose in posting this thread is to kill contention. If your not upset, then let's agree to be kind, gentle, long-suffering and seek to understand before seeking to be understood.
I don't see justification for what I do.
Yeah, me neither.
I stated why I'm here and I do what I said I would be doing. When we have a level-headed argument coming from our critics I'll be happy to address their questions. Until then it's just a matter of protecting myself from getting covered in so much dung.
You're not defending us when you're making us look bad.
Says a Christian poster:
Understand the charges being leveled against us:
"It's not about having a discussion at all, but about trying, by any means necessary, to prove Joseph Smith correct.
That includes ignoring clear answers. Twisting words or refusing to try to at least understand the person they're talking with."

My recent exchange with both you and Mesenja are evidence of this. I claim I agree with Martin Luther's statement in "Faith Alone" and I'm being ransacked without even clarifying what is being said - which gives the impression that you simply want to win an argument at all costs.
 
Ok. You've just shifted the goal posts. No where in your initial response did you disagree my analogy. In fact, you used my analogy to state why THEY we're wrong, classifying it as "abuse". So, I guess we're done here?
That's up to you, dude.
Likewise, protestant Christians are stirred up to anger against us because of anti-mormon literature.
They never had the truth.
Anti-mormon literature comes from our dissenters.
That's not entirely true.
Thus, I don't treat ravermin (whatever his name is) or lastdaysbelier like I do Janice or Magdalena.
By reacting with venom to a protestant's ignorant state, it gives the impression that we're guilty as charged, and confirm their bias.
if they are willing to discuss what we believe, I would treat them differently.
The purpose in posting this thread is to kill contention. If your not upset, then let's agree to be kind, gentle, long-suffering and seek to understand before seeking to be understood.
I just said that I'm not upset. This is what you get with me. This is my long-suffering.
Yeah, me neither.
that was, I don't need justification.
You're not defending us when you're making us look bad.
That's not my concern. I'm not here to make us look good. I'm here to explain our beliefs as I understand them.
Understand the charges being leveled against us:
"It's not about having a discussion at all, but about trying, by any means necessary, to prove Joseph Smith correct.
That includes ignoring clear answers. Twisting words or refusing to try to at least understand the person they're talking with."
I think this is a hypothetical quote that never occurred.
My recent exchange with both you and Mesenja are evidence of this.
That exchange is simply evidence that you and I disagree on some points. It's not evidence of how we approach non-members as you would suggest it is.
I claim I agree with Martin Luther's statement in "Faith Alone" and I'm being ransacked without even clarifying what is being said
You don't understand that we disagree with your view? What do we need to do to make it more clear?
which gives the impression that you simply want to win an argument at all costs.
Nah. I just want you to understand that we believe there is no such thing as faith alone.
 
Are you saying that Satan doesn't know the truth? Do you think he doesn't have it? It is one thing to be duped by Satan and believe something is true that isn't and it's another thing to know what's true and intentionally misdirect people from finding truth. The power is in knowing the truth whether your actions are good or evil doesn't change the power one holds by knowing truth.

That may be true, but we butt heads on some pretty basic principles. I accept that no everyone agrees with my perspective and as long as we know we're just speculating, that shouldn't cause an issue.

I'm not sure how that changes anything

that wasn't me who said you have been sold a bag of goods.

I have no problem with doing that, but; they apparently do.
That’s one of the problems. You’re speculating about Mormon doctrine, not telling what it actually is. You present your own theories and opinions as if it’s official Mormon teachings. It’s deceptive. We know the difference, and will point it out to you.
 
That’s one of the problems. You’re speculating about Mormon doctrine, not telling what it actually is. You present your own theories and opinions as if it’s official Mormon teachings. It’s deceptive. We know the difference, and will point it out to you.
I beg to differ with you since I pretty much understand our Doctrine and have seen nothing indicating brotherofJared doesn't also understand and teaches it perfectly well... Yes there are differences in Doctrine, but all of us LDS have seen and dealt with a plethora of outright fiction and fake criticisms regarding our doctrine and our leaders... even Christ said, And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country. Luke 4
 
I beg to differ with you since I pretty much understand our Doctrine and have seen nothing indicating brotherofJared doesn't also understand and teaches it perfectly well... Yes there are differences in Doctrine, but all of us LDS have seen and dealt with a plethora of outright fiction and fake criticisms regarding our doctrine and our leaders... even Christ said, And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country. Luke 4
How often are you even here? Do you read all the posts of every thread? No.
 
How often are you even here? Do you read all the posts of every thread? No.
What's your point... I mostly look for outright lies, fiction and fake reporting ... like I said in the past, when it comes to debating doctrine, evangelicals take a hind seat in spades... chuckle.
 
What's your point... I mostly look for outright lies, fiction and fake reporting ... like I said in the past, when it comes to debating doctrine, evangelicals take a hind seat in spades... chuckle.
Your mocking chuckle doesn’t do you or your church any good, Ralph.
 
Your mocking chuckle doesn’t do you or your church any good, Ralph.
Name is Richard7 or Just Richard... you're being scornful by calling me Ralph... how does this change the lying, faking the facts and evidence and making up doctrine we don't teach? LDS have caught many of the evangelicals in out right false invention ..
 
Name is Richard7 or Just Richard... you're being scornful by calling me Ralph... how does this change the lying, faking the facts and evidence and making up doctrine we don't teach? LDS have caught many of the evangelicals in out right false invention ..
No you haven’t. You just want people to believe that because you say so.

And coming in here under different names, pretending to be someone else, doesn’t show a lot of integrity.
 
Name is Richard7 or Just Richard... you're being scornful by calling me Ralph... how does this change the lying, faking the facts and evidence and making up doctrine we don't teach? LDS have caught many of the evangelicals in out right false invention ..
Yea. That's never going to stop.
 
That’s one of the problems. You’re speculating about Mormon doctrine, not telling what it actually is. You present your own theories and opinions as if it’s official Mormon teachings. It’s deceptive. We know the difference, and will point it out to you.

It seems to me, that is the response whenever I post the Biblical scriptures:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

So--what do you find in the Biblical NT--which isn't found in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go?
 
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