Law vs Grace
- Thread starter Manfred
- Start date
SDAchristian
Well-known member
Prologue: I realize many poorly informed Adventists may give this impression, for these questions to be asked.
I can turn around this mindset and ask some pointed questions in return too, to your church members.
AV Mt 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
But to answer a direct a question, requires you to answer direct questions too, Right per Jesus ???
As stated "Do SDA members believe they have to uphold the Law like the Sabbath in order to be saved?", No !!! But I can not deny that some members leave this impression when witnessing, they do not represent the Adventists properly in doing that.
After asked seven times in the home of a Theological Seminary teacher's home, sharing Adventist Literature, "Are you saved by keeping Sabbath?" I said "No", seven times with no hesitation. On the seven time, I simply returned the question, "Are you saved by keeping Sunday?" The silence was so terrible, then started the thinking sounds, "Ahhhhh", "Hummmnnn". I had to ask again. They forced out a "No" answer.
Do First Day/Sunday Christians need to keep Sunday "in order to be saved?"
So they need a government Sunday laws for enforcement of dogmas ??? A law of works, this is so sad, that LOVE does not work any more for motive.
AV Jn 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
To understand an SDA mindset on this, is it Jesus' will for anyone to continue to sin according to the Decalogue, after being saved ???
AV Ga 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Let us ask Paul then.
AV Ro 5:19-6:4 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. 6:1 What shall we say then?(1) Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?(2) 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?(3) 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?(4) 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Paul asks four questions, Please answer these for continued discussions.
"... and then continue to keep yourself saved by law?", You know this is not true for everyone living on earth.
AV Ro 3:21-22 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Can anyone be saved by a Sunday Law for GOD's Righteousness, with scripture texts ???
You realize, the end of the world is within the fives senses.
Yours in Christ, Michael
I can turn around this mindset and ask some pointed questions in return too, to your church members.
The question is stated incorrectly. But for starters ...
AV Mt 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
But to answer a direct a question, requires you to answer direct questions too, Right per Jesus ???
As stated "Do SDA members believe they have to uphold the Law like the Sabbath in order to be saved?", No !!! But I can not deny that some members leave this impression when witnessing, they do not represent the Adventists properly in doing that.
After asked seven times in the home of a Theological Seminary teacher's home, sharing Adventist Literature, "Are you saved by keeping Sabbath?" I said "No", seven times with no hesitation. On the seven time, I simply returned the question, "Are you saved by keeping Sunday?" The silence was so terrible, then started the thinking sounds, "Ahhhhh", "Hummmnnn". I had to ask again. They forced out a "No" answer.
Do First Day/Sunday Christians need to keep Sunday "in order to be saved?"
So they need a government Sunday laws for enforcement of dogmas ??? A law of works, this is so sad, that LOVE does not work any more for motive.
AV Jn 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
To understand an SDA mindset on this, is it Jesus' will for anyone to continue to sin according to the Decalogue, after being saved ???
Another poorly worded question !!!
AV Ga 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Let us ask Paul then.
AV Ro 5:19-6:4 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. 6:1 What shall we say then?(1) Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?(2) 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?(3) 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?(4) 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Paul asks four questions, Please answer these for continued discussions.
"... and then continue to keep yourself saved by law?", You know this is not true for everyone living on earth.
AV Ro 3:21-22 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Can anyone be saved by a Sunday Law for GOD's Righteousness, with scripture texts ???
You realize, the end of the world is within the fives senses.
Yours in Christ, Michael
Ahh; so you are a SDA Literature Evangelist ????
A Merchant Man selling Many Books
Ecc.12:11
11 The words of the wise are as goads,
and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies,
which are given from one shepherd.
12 And further, by these,
(words of the wise given from one shepherd.)
my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end;
and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
Your are entitled to speak your opinion on CARM.
I believe that the future will reveal the Truth, that I have had the Truth longer.
Yours in Christ, Michael
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Buzzard replies;
Evidently, Michael; you never read the words of Solomon about those Many Books
that the
Merchant Menof Revelationgo forth Door to Door selling
so no Michael;
you have no Truth, Ziltch, Notta, not a bit
in fact you are in Grave Danger of this;
Matt.13:12
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given,
and he shall have more abundance:
but whosoever hath not,
from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
For the other Posters / lurkers
In the days of Christ
Who was always going to ""STONE"" people, even Christ
for not keeping ""Sabbath"" as they commanded
ie: Handwriting of ordinances
Sunday Keeping Gentiles ??????
----------------- or ------------
White Washed Sabbath Keeping Sepulchers ????Michael;
Is it true that the SDA Elders have already put forth their
own Rules and Regulations of Proper Sabbath Keeping ?????
and commanding all SDA's to follow
yes or No
Common Tater
Active member
You keep pushing this myth of Sunday sabbatarianism. I know that there are some Christians wIs
You continue to push the false belief that Christians who worship on Sunday believe in Sunday sabbatarianism. This is a falsehood and you know it. Although there are indeed some who believe that Sunday is the "Christian Sabbath", you will find that mainstream Christianity does not hold to that belief. We could just as easily meet for corporate worship on any other day of the week, including Saturday (many churches have a Saturday evening service in addition to their regular Sunday service). We meet on Sunday in celebration of our Lord and Savior rising from the grave on that day. And we believe what Paul tells us in Romans 14:5 -
One person values one day over another, another values every day the same. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
The Sabbath was given by God to the Children of Israel, and them alone, as a sign of the Old Covenant. If you don't believe that, do a little research. Find out what Jews have to say about it.
And please show from Scripture where not worshiping on Saturday is the Mark of the Beast or where Sunday laws will be instituted.
SDAchristian
Well-known member
There is not a literal enough answer to satisfy the self deceived from scriptures.
AV Re 13:15-17 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
The Mark of the Beast is raising man's law above GOD's law, with the same penalties as GOD's law.
AV 2Th 2:4-5 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
Paul knew.
AV Ezk 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
GOD is the true Owner of "all souls" in this created world.
To be continued, in the news in front of the whole world ...
Tic, Tock, that clock is running out of time.
Yours in Christ, Michael
SDAchristian
Well-known member
The day is coming, when men makes laws against the words of Paul, even these words. They will murder for their own broken laws against mankind, making themselves like GOD.
Many are so self deceived, that they are unable to discern the Truths of GOD.
Yours in Christ, Michael
Common Tater
Active member
It says worshiping the beast. It says nothing about a day. That is Adventism reading something into the tezt that simply is not there. In one post, you say your salvation is not dependent on the Sabbath, the next text you say the opposite. Which is it?
SDAchristian
Well-known member
I served as such, for almost four years.
"Ahh; so you are a SDA Literature Evangelist ????", Currently, No.
Yours in Christ, Michael
SDAchristian
Well-known member
AV Isa 66:22-23 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
When this happens as prophecy fulfillment, no one is going to make a big deal of it.
AV Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity{G458 anomia}.
Please decide for yourself to fulfill this prophecy for yourself, with it's consequences.
Check Question: Consider this carefully !!!
"Which is it?", Does your salvation depends on which sins you confess to Jesus ???
Yours in Christ, Michael
Common Tater
Active member
BTW, 4761 Christians were killed in 2020 for their belief in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. But those deaths don't count to an Adventist who secretly believes that his salvation is dependent on worshiping a day.
Common Tater
Active member
My salvation depends on confessing my sins and claiming Christ's blood in place of my own. However, I am not sinning by not observing a Jewish holy day that Gentiles were never commanded to keep.
Michael;
That is the """NEW EARTH AND New HEAVENS"""
do you know the difference ???
that is not on this ole 3rd Rock from the Sun
Michael;
Those are the Workers of Iniquity
You know;
doing all those good deeds for the ""WRONG REASONS"""
ie: just workin their way to Heaven, workin your Way to heaven
and who would that be, Michael;
that
sitteth in the temple of God,
plz don't tell us its The Pope,
if so; the The RCC is the one true church
ie: The temple of God
why are you not a member in good standing ??????
Michael;
you are so confused and so far out in La-La Land,
you have no idea what or who Paul speaks of
SDAchristian
Well-known member
Did GOD ever order a death of a person for breaking the sabbath relationship with GOD ??? The same death for any OTHER sin !!!
When the counterfeit sabbath comes with the same penalties that the original sabbath came with. That is when the mark of the beast becomes fully effective to take away salvation from those who keep the counterfeit sabbath by enacted laws of men.
Just remember, you can not claim ignorance when you see all this in the news. And GOD will know the Whole Truth and when you knew, but did not believe. Self deception does this to those who are ignorant of GOD's character.
Yours in Christ, Michael
Hi Mike, it odd that you would say "no" to that question when you know that you believe the writings of Ellen thatif you don't keep the Sabbath you will be lost. As persons become convinced from the Scriptures that the claims of the fourth commandment are still binding, the question is often raised, Is it necessary in order to secure salvation that we keep the Sabbath? This is a question of grave importance. If the light has shone from the word of God, if the message has been presented to men, as it was to Pharaoh, and they refuse to heed that message, if they reject the light, they refuse to obey God, and cannot be saved in their disobedience. {RH, January 5, 1886 par. 2}
All will be judged according to the light that has shone upon them. If they have light upon the Sabbath, they cannot be saved in rejecting that light.{HS 234.3}
But if we turn aside from the fourth commandment, so positively given by God, to adopt the inventions of Satan, voiced and acted by men under his control, we cannot be saved. We cannot with safety receive his traditions and subtleties as truth. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 4}
Manfred
Well-known member
Ok, so keeping the Sabbath is not required for salvation.
Is this in agreement with the writings of HW for interest sake?
No one is saved by keeping a day. I wonder why that Seminary teacher found it so hard to express. I certainly do not believe a day saves you.
Nope. No one Christian that I know believes that.
Nope. No government Sunday laws for enforcement of dogmas.
Perhaps you want to cite an example for me to better understand you?
No, it is not His will. How do think you are able to sin no more. Is it by trying really really hard, like Israel did when they tried really really hard to keep the Law, or is there some other way?
Only to those who are trying to keep themselves saved by law.
No. (Ephesians 2; Romans 10; 1 Cor 15 etc.)
I do not understand this assertion
SDAchristian
Well-known member
Prologue:
The pivot point in this discussion is, what is sin versus what is righteousness ???
AV Ro 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
I admit the above(Ro 10:4) is true per Paul's usage and understanding.
AV Jn 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
How does GOD define present day sin, that Jesus' blood atone for ???
Then we might discuss issues that surround GOD's "my holy day", the sabbath.
Yours in Christ, Michael
The pivot point in this discussion is, what is sin versus what is righteousness ???
AV Ro 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
I admit the above(Ro 10:4) is true per Paul's usage and understanding.
AV Jn 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
How does GOD define present day sin, that Jesus' blood atone for ???
Do you need a real lesson on sanctification by GOD's Holy Spirit, before Jesus' second advent ???
Then we might discuss issues that surround GOD's "my holy day", the sabbath.
Yours in Christ, Michael
SDAchristian
Well-known member
"HW" is maybe EGW ???
AV Ro 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
"Ok, so keeping the Sabbath is not required for salvation.", Yes.
But in sanctification, The Holy Spirit wants us to stop actively sinning, showing our cooperation with GOD's government.
Is keeping Sunday required for salvation, in the same sense you portrayed sabbath keeping ???
Yours in Christ, Michael
SDAchristian
Well-known member
The end is visible from my perspective.
When you see these things in the news, Jesus' second advent is very close.Four Stages of Sunday Law (EGW References available) said:
Yours in Christ, Michael
OK, once again there Michael
Where in the Law does it say that for the Gentiles to attend
or assemble on 1st Day of the week is a Sin ???????
Where Michael, Where
you are such a Bible Expert, and all knowing
after all you have said you are another Noah,
called to build another Ark
and there was only one prophet at that time
oh wait a minute; you also claim you are the Elijah to come
another John the Baptist,
then you likened yourself to the Angel in Rev.
giving the Loud Cry
If so;
surly you can point these Gentiles to that great sin of Sunday
that Paul tricked them into
Acts 20:7
And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread,
Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow;
and continued his speech until midnight.
Mark of the Beast; Mark of the Beast; Mark of the Beast;
Inagine that;
Boy, that Paul is gonna have a lot to answer for at Judgement,