Law vs Grace

Manfred

Well-known member
"HW" is maybe EGW ???
Yes, sorry EGW. Is it in keeping with her teaching?
AV Ro 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

"Ok, so keeping the Sabbath is not required for salvation.", Yes.

But in sanctification, The Holy Spirit wants us to stop actively sinning, showing our cooperation with GOD's government.
Agreed
Is keeping Sunday required for salvation, in the same sense you portrayed sabbath keeping ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
Already stated no. Sunday is not required for salvation,
 

Common Tater

Active member
"HW" is maybe EGW ???

AV Ro 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

"Ok, so keeping the Sabbath is not required for salvation.", Yes.

But in sanctification, The Holy Spirit wants us to stop actively sinning, showing our cooperation with GOD's government.

Is keeping Sunday required for salvation, in the same sense you portrayed sabbath keeping ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
No, "kepping Sunday" is not and never has been required for salvation. And you will notice in a Chriatian church that the sermon will be about Christ and the Gospel, instead of an almost weekly sermon about Sabbath worship.
 

ontheBeam

Member
Hi Mike, we have been debating now for several years and as yet you have not really answered any of my questions. so, when I saw the answer you gave in a previous post, I was so surprised I almost fell out of my chair. Just to remind you of that answer I am posting it for you to ponder. I know it contained the big word ''BUT'', but I saw it as a solid answer of your belief. "As stated "Do SDA members believe they have to uphold the Law like the Sabbath in order to be saved?", No !!! But I can not deny that some members leave this impression when witnessing, they do not represent the Adventists properly in doing that."

Your "no" answer, as I stated, was a big surprise. It was a big surprise because I know you really do not believe that. You are a faithful Adventist that believes Ellen White is a true prophet and she wrote much about the issue that is diametrically opposed to the "no!!!" answer you posted. Instead of beating around the bush please tell me why you answered the question with a "no".
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
Prologue:
AV Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].
No, "kepping Sunday" is not and never has been required for salvation. And you will notice in a Chriatian church that the sermon will be about Christ and the Gospel, instead of an almost weekly sermon about Sabbath worship.
"No, "kepping Sunday" is not and never has been required for salvation.", You are correct, in GOD's understanding !!!

AV Re 13:4-9 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

That does preclude, those that are against GOD, but for "the dragon ... the beast", to make Sunday Laws to force worship !!!

AV Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These people fall into the category of being self deceived with blasphemy, not knowing GOD personally, to commit "iniquity".

AV Re 16:5-7 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. 6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. 7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments.

In the OT, they killed prophets with GOD's messages in prophecy. The self deceived think now, they would not murder, "saints and prophets". But GOD will have this plague just for the self deceived.

AV Isa 66:15-17 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. 17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one [tree] in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

The self deceived are known for violating GOD's laws of Holiness, like defiling themselves with "swine's flesh".

The self deceived are known for thinking GOD will not do, what GOD said GOD will do.

Please consider this:
Noah was the ONLY person in the flesh, that GOD communicated literally, the coming destruction of the whole earth with a flood.

AV Am 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

How likely is GOD going to do that again ???

AV Re 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

"the image of the beast" has not received power yet !!!

This part is easy, knowing these words of warning: Who will decide to be a murderer(or an accomplice to murder) or decide to be a martyr ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
Prologue:
AV Eph 4:11-13 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
I can't find the Book of McNulty in my Bible.
It is not there in Bible Canon. But Bible Canon, has not been open for additions for a long time, but that is under the control of men. So that GOD still uses prophets.
Are you using the Clear Word?
No, But you could do better to ask more pertinent questions.

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
Your "no" answer, as I stated, was a big surprise. It was a big surprise because I know you really do not believe that. You are a faithful Adventist that believes Ellen White is a true prophet and she wrote much about the issue that is diametrically opposed to the "no!!!" answer you posted. Instead of beating around the bush please tell me why you answered the question with a "no".
AV Ro 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

You are surprised that no one is saved by "the law for righteousness", that is on you !!!

As far as EGW writings debate, Please use a new thread in the Adventism forum for continued discussion. I have discussed, how I used EGW writings in the past forums.

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

Common Tater

Active member
Prologue:
AV Eph 4:11-13 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

It is not there in Bible Canon. But Bible Canon, has not been open for additions for a long time, but that is under the control of men. So that GOD still uses prophets.

No, But you could do better to ask more pertinent questions.

Yours in Christ, Michael
I see you use the word "prophets". Plural. Please name other prophets you believe to be inspired since the close of the canon.

As far as asking more pertinent questions, I'd gladly do so if you started providing clear and concise answers instead of cryptic statements.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
Prologue:
AV Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

"No, "kepping Sunday" is not and never has been required for salvation.", You are correct, in GOD's understanding !!!

AV Re 13:4-9 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

That does preclude, those that are against GOD, but for "the dragon ... the beast", to make Sunday Laws to force worship !!!

AV Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These people fall into the category of being self deceived with blasphemy, not knowing GOD personally, to commit "iniquity".

AV Re 16:5-7 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. 6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. 7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments.

In the OT, they killed prophets with GOD's messages in prophecy. The self deceived think now, they would not murder, "saints and prophets". But GOD will have this plague just for the self deceived.

AV Isa 66:15-17 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. 17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one [tree] in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

The self deceived are known for violating GOD's laws of Holiness, like defiling themselves with "swine's flesh".

The self deceived are known for thinking GOD will not do, what GOD said GOD will do.

Please consider this:
Noah was the ONLY person in the flesh, that GOD communicated literally, the coming destruction of the whole earth with a flood.

AV Am 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

How likely is GOD going to do that again ???

AV Re 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

"the image of the beast" has not received power yet !!!

This part is easy, knowing these words of warning: Who will decide to be a murderer(or an accomplice to murder) or decide to be a martyr ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
So we can both agree that Sabbath/Sunday services have no bearing on salvation, and that the Law is not required in salvation.

So it seems, that you may be saying that after Grace, you have to keep yourself saved and not be defiled, achieving it by keeping the Law Perfectly in order to remain under grace?
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
Prologue:
AV Jn 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
BTW, 4761 Christians were killed in 2020 for their belief in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. But those deaths don't count to an Adventist who secretly believes that his salvation is dependent on worshiping a day.
That's your opinion to express.

Evidence is another matter entirely.

AV Jn 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Just asking, who gets to judge Adventists off your opinion ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

Common Tater

Active member
Prologue:
AV Jn 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

That's your opinion to express.

Evidence is another matter entirely.

AV Jn 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Just asking, who gets to judge Adventists off your opinion ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
I would simply suggest that you go back and read your own posts. You constantly tell people who attend church on Sunday that they are going to rise up and kill Adventists for worshiping on Saturday. To quote you: "That's your opinion to express. Evidence is another matter entirely."

Just asking, who gets to judge Christians off your opinion?

BTW, 19 people were injured in Makassar, Indonesia yesterday when two suicide bombers attacked a church during a Palm Sunday mass. But these people don't seem to meet your criterion for being persecuted for their faith because they worship on a different day.
 

MMDAN

Active member
Do SDA members believe they have to uphold the Law like the Sabbath in order to be saved?

Is there a point where you are saved by grace, and then continue to keep yourself saved by law?
On a different Christian forum a member of the SDA church once made this statement to me below:

The counterfeit Gospel is out there. What is the other Gospel? It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's Law (10 commandments) from the Cross. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation. God’s Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ.

Clearly sounds like "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works" to me. :cautious:
 

Wrenage

Member
On a different Christian forum a member of the SDA church once made this statement to me below:

The counterfeit Gospel is out there. What is the other Gospel? It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's Law (10 commandments) from the Cross. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation. God’s Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ.

Clearly sounds like "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works" to me. :cautious:

That SDA should read "The Proper Distinction Between Law And Gospel" by CFW Walther. It's a great book on the subject. Many, many, many, many problems are caused by mixing law and gospel accidentally.

This poster is mixing them deliberately.
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
On a different Christian forum a member of the SDA church once made this statement to me below:
The counterfeit Gospel is out there. What is the other Gospel? It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's Law (10 commandments) from the Cross. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation. God’s Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ.
Clearly sounds like "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works" to me. :cautious:
AV Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I would recommend picking a side in this war, before the side picks you !!!

The context of your post suggest you have already done that. So I will spare you "the testimony of Jesus Christ" as evidence.

AV Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

From my point of view, why need a Savior when you have no definition of gospel sin.

Is it a gospel sin, to keep first/sun day versus Sabbath("my holy day") ???

Does sin remain a sin, even if GOD says it once ???

What I can not understand, without GOD's definition of sin, what works of sin, will ruin eternal life for that person ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
That SDA should read "The Proper Distinction Between Law And Gospel" by CFW Walther. It's a great book on the subject. Many, many, many, many problems are caused by mixing law and gospel accidentally.
This poster is mixing them deliberately.
AV Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity{G458 anomia}.

Until you understand Jesus' declaration in this verse, many are risking their salvation over a poor understanding of law and the gospel.

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

Wrenage

Member
AV Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity{G458 anomia}.

Until you understand Jesus' declaration in this verse, many are risking their salvation over a poor understanding of law and the gospel.

Yours in Christ, Michael

What is the great mystery about Matthew 7:23? One can go on Biblehub and read all about it in five minutes...


I would have loved to see a debate between CFW Walther and Ellen White on the subject of law and gospel.

That would have been AMAZING!
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
What is the great mystery about Matthew 7:23? One can go on Biblehub and read all about it in five minutes...
I would have loved to see a debate between CFW Walther and Ellen White on the subject of law and gospel.
That would have been AMAZING!
AV 1Jn 3:4-8 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

This is Jesus' mission with a definition of sin.

You are no longer ignorant of Jesus' mission of "purpose".

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

Buzzard

Well-known member
What is the great mystery about Matthew 7:23? One can go on Biblehub and read all about it in five minutes...


I would have loved to see a debate between CFW Walther and Ellen White on the subject of law and gospel.

That would have been AMAZING!
Your link is:
Matthew 7:23 Commentaries: "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

and he is dead wrong,
like all of his sort; he hasn't a clue

Iniquity is
"Doing good things for the wrong reason"

is it evil to give Alms to the Poor ??
only if you are doing it to exalt yourself
"to be seen of men"

or doing Evil to bring about Good
as in the Left-est Liberal says
The End Justify s the means"

I could give a few more examples;
but
 
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Manfred

Well-known member
AV Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I would recommend picking a side in this war, before the side picks you !!!

The context of your post suggest you have already done that. So I will spare you "the testimony of Jesus Christ" as evidence.

AV Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

From my point of view, why need a Savior when you have no definition of gospel sin.

Is it a gospel sin, to keep first/sun day versus Sabbath("my holy day") ???

Does sin remain a sin, even if GOD says it once ???

What I can not understand, without GOD's definition of sin, what works of sin, will ruin eternal life for that person ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
Why are you writing that?

Who is the remnant of her seed?
Did Jesus give commandments?
Is Jesus God?

28 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

What burden are you placing on yourself? To keep the law perfectly?
And if you fail, what then? Do you proclaim yourself not guilty.
 
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