Law vs Grace

ontheBeam

Member
In Jn 15: 10-14 Jesus said He kept His Father's commands and asks us to keep His commands. Jesus' command to all mankind is to love others as Jesus loves us. He said that a few days before going to the Cross for our sins. As I understand it the commands Jesus kept according to Matt 5 was the Laws of the old covenant. SDAs can't wait to use Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. SDA Christian used large letters proclaiming that verse. The question I have for SDAs is Is Jesus God. We are to keep Jesus commands. Jesus kept the Father's commands. SDAs try to tell us God's commands are the 10 commandments, but nowhere can we find that. God gave Israel 613 commands, so if SDAs happen to be correct then there are a total of 613 commands that God gave to Israel. We don't have to worry that SDAs have it correct. We can find out the truth by reading 1Jn3:19-24. Paul wrote a great deal about keeping the laws of the old covenant and in 2Cor 3:6-11 we find him telling us that the 10 commandments were temporary commands to guide Israel. The KJV is even stronger, it tell us that the 10 commandments were done away.
 

Buzzard

Well-known member
In Jn 15: 10-14 Jesus said He kept His Father's commands and asks us to keep His commands. Jesus' command to all mankind is to love others as Jesus loves us. He said that a few days before going to the Cross for our sins. As I understand it the commands Jesus kept according to Matt 5 was the Laws of the old covenant. SDAs can't wait to use Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. SDA Christian used large letters proclaiming that verse. The question I have for SDAs is Is Jesus God. We are to keep Jesus commands. Jesus kept the Father's commands. SDAs try to tell us God's commands are the 10 commandments, but nowhere can we find that. God gave Israel 613 commands, so if SDAs happen to be correct then there are a total of 613 commands that God gave to Israel. We don't have to worry that SDAs have it correct. We can find out the truth by reading 1Jn3:19-24. Paul wrote a great deal about keeping the laws of the old covenant and in 2Cor 3:6-11 we find him telling us that the 10 commandments were temporary commands to guide Israel. The KJV is even stronger, it tell us that the 10 commandments were done away.
ontheBeam;
regardless of what you have been led to believe
God gave Moses 10 Commandments;
and the Temple services of the Levites

all others are the Law of Moses

Malachi 4:4
Remember ye the law of Moses my servant,
which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel,
with the statutes and
judgments.

then there were all those "Handwritting of ordinances"
added over the years by those that were not authorized to do so

these rules and regulations were what Paul refers to as

"Done away with, contrary to us, Grievous Burdens to be born"

these Christ Nailed to the Cross, took them out of the way ect, ect, ect
 

Wrenage

Member
AV 1Jn 3:4-8 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

This is Jesus' mission with a definition of sin.

You are no longer ignorant of Jesus' mission of "purpose".

Yours in Christ, Michael

I didn't realize I was ignorant of Jesus mission and purpose...unless I am ignorant of the Ellen White version of Jesus mission and purpose. That's possible. I read her, but I'm not an expert on her.

Have you read "The Proper Distinction Between Law And Gospel?"
 

Formersda

Active member
AV 1Jn 3:4-8 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

This is Jesus' mission with a definition of sin.

You are no longer ignorant of Jesus' mission of "purpose".

Yours in Christ, Michael
AV 1Jn 3:4-8 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Which law are you talking about? Is it the book of the law? Or is it just the Ten Commandments? Are the Ten Commandments separate to the book of the law?
 

Buzzard

Well-known member
AV 1Jn 3:4-8 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Which law are you talking about? Is it the book of the law? Or is it just the Ten Commandments? Are the Ten Commandments separate to the book of the law?
Former asks;
Are the Ten Commandments separate to the book of the law?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes; they are
Deut.31:24
And it came to pass,
when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book,
until they were finished,

25 That Moses commanded the Levites,
(and that is not the SDA as Michael has been told)
which bare (Carried) the ark of the covenant of the Lord,
saying,

26 Take this book of the law,
and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God,
(on the side of the Ark; not inside)

that it may be there for a witness against thee.

In the Ark are Two (2) things
The Tables of Stone; Commandments, and the Pot of Manna

Rev.11:19
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven,
and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament:

and low and behold;
in Johns Revelation
what do we see

The Law of God written in 10 Commandments
and the Pot of Manna
put there by Moses 3,500 +/- years ago

and what do we see in the temple of God ???????

Aaron's Rod
and the Authority it represents


Micheal;
That ain't a bunch of :devilish: Wanna be Jews 😈
AKA the Elders of the Seventh Day Adventist Church
 
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Formersda

Active member
Former asks;
Are the Ten Commandments separate to the book of the law?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes; they are
Deut.31:24
And it came to pass,
when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book,
until they were finished,

25 That Moses commanded the Levites,
(and that is not the SDA as Michael has been told)
which bare (Carried) the ark of the covenant of the Lord,
saying,

26 Take this book of the law,
and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God,
(on the side of the Ark; not inside)

that it may be there for a witness against thee.

In the Ark are Two (2) things
The Tables of Stone; Commandments, and the Pot of Manna

Rev.11:19
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven,
and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament:

and low and behold;
in Johns Revelation
what do we see

The Law of God written in 10 Commandments
and the Pot of Manna
put there by Moses 3,500 +/- years ago

and what do we see in the temple of God ???????

Aaron's Rod
and the Authority it represents


Micheal;
That ain't a bunch of :devilish: Wanna be Jews 😈
AKA the Elders of the Seventh Day Adventist Church
Thank you but are they both together part of the mosaic covenant?
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
Prologue:
AV 2C 3:3 [Forasmuch as ye are] manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
In Jn 15: 10-14 Jesus said He kept His Father's commands and asks us to keep His commands. Jesus' command to all mankind is to love others as Jesus loves us. He said that a few days before going to the Cross for our sins. As I understand it the commands Jesus kept according to Matt 5 was the Laws of the old covenant. SDAs can't wait to use Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. SDA Christian used large letters proclaiming that verse. The question I have for SDAs is Is Jesus God. We are to keep Jesus commands. Jesus kept the Father's commands. SDAs try to tell us God's commands are the 10 commandments, but nowhere can we find that. God gave Israel 613 commands, so if SDAs happen to be correct then there are a total of 613 commands that God gave to Israel. We don't have to worry that SDAs have it correct. We can find out the truth by reading 1Jn3:19-24. Paul wrote a great deal about keeping the laws of the old covenant and in 2Cor 3:6-11 we find him telling us that the 10 commandments were temporary commands to guide Israel. The KJV is even stronger, it tell us that the 10 commandments were done away.
I'll bite. Quote those Bible verses, but you read them first, so we can discuss them. Of course, the last time you abandoned the discussion.

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
I didn't realize I was ignorant of Jesus mission and purpose...unless I am ignorant of the Ellen White version of Jesus mission and purpose. That's possible. I read her, but I'm not an expert on her.
Have you read "The Proper Distinction Between Law And Gospel?"
"Have you read "The Proper Distinction Between Law And Gospel?"", No.

An aspect of the Gospel is Jesus' story of how GOD destroys all sin.

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

Buzzard

Well-known member
Buzzard said:
Former asks;
Are the Ten Commandments separate to the book of the law?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes; they are
Deut.31:24
And it came to pass,
when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book,
until they were finished,

25 That Moses commanded the Levites,
(and that is not the SDA as Michael has been told)
which bare (Carried) the ark of the covenant of the Lord,
saying,

26 Take this book of the law,
and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God,
(on the side of the Ark; not inside)

that it may be there for a witness against thee.

In the Ark are Two (2) things
The Tables of Stone; Commandments, and the Pot of Manna

Rev.11:19
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven,
and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament:

and low and behold;
in Johns Revelation
what do we see

The Law of God written in 10 Commandments
and the Pot of Manna
put there by Moses 3,500 +/- years ago

and what do we see in the temple of God ???????

Aaron's Rod
and the Authority it represents


Micheal;
That ain't a bunch of :devilish: Wanna be Jews 😈
AKA the Elders of the Seventh Day Adventist Church
Thank you but are they both together part of the mosaic covenant?
I assume you mean;
the Covenant made by The Father thru Moses
and ordained by the Angels

Proverbs 6:20
My son, keep thy father's commandment,
and forsake not the law of thy mother:

21 Bind them continually upon thine heart,
and tie them about thy neck.

22 When thou goest, it shall lead thee;
when thou sleepest, it shall keep thee;
and when thou awakest, it shall talk with thee.

23 For the commandment is a lamp;
and the law is light;
and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:

24 To keep thee from the evil woman,
from the flattery of the tongue of a strange woman.


False Visions and Dreams of the Deluded Mind
"when thou sleepest, it shall keep thee";
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
AV 1Jn 3:4-8 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Which law are you talking about? Is it the book of the law? Or is it just the Ten Commandments? Are the Ten Commandments separate to the book of the law?
We have had some of this discussion before.

AV Ja 2:8-12 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

"Which law are you talking about?", "the royal law", written by GOD's own finger. "the law of liberty", Liberty from sin.

"Is it the book of the law?", We need to share a common definition, before I can comment.

"Or is it just the Ten Commandments?", We need to include the short love metaphors for the Decalogue too. James has a good example here.

"Are the Ten Commandments separate to the book of the law?", It depends on what we are capable of understanding of GOD's viewpoint on the subject. Decalogue was written by GOD, "the book of the law" was a dictation to Moses. A good time to discuss precedence of Truth. Any Truth that GOD writes or says, is higher than man's thoughts.

AV Mt 22:37-38 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment.

I know many do not live up to their potential in loving GOD, following Jesus' example of love to GOD and love to "neighbour".

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

Wrenage

Member
"Have you read "The Proper Distinction Between Law And Gospel?"", No.

An aspect of the Gospel is Jesus' story of how GOD destroys all sin.

Yours in Christ, Michael

If you haven't read The Proper Distinction Between Law And Gospel, then you probably aren't a very good authority of judging whether or not Walther had a poor understanding on the subject of Law and Gospel (dry as dust prose but very thorough).

As I said earlier, a debate on that subject between Walter and Ellen White would have been amazing. Walter would have chewed Ellen White up and spit her out. He was an actual theologian, not false prophet.
 

SDAchristian

Well-known member
If you haven't read The Proper Distinction Between Law And Gospel, then you probably aren't a very good authority of judging whether or not Walther had a poor understanding on the subject of Law and Gospel (dry as dust prose but very thorough).
As I said earlier, a debate on that subject between Walter and Ellen White would have been amazing. Walter would have chewed Ellen White up and spit her out. He was an actual theologian, not false prophet.
You have the privilege to express yourself within the context of CARM's rules.

"Walter would have chewed Ellen White up and spit her out.", Is he a cannibal then ???

Does not sound so loving either.

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

Wrenage

Member
You have the privilege to express yourself within the context of CARM's rules.

"Walter would have chewed Ellen White up and spit her out.", Is he a cannibal then ???

Does not sound so loving either.

Yours in Christ, Michael

One doesn't have to use flowerly words when speaking of false prophets. The LORD doesn't. False prophets are wolves in sheep's clothing (Matthew 7:15), antichrists (1 John 2:18) and Jezebels (Revelation 2:20).

And what is wrong with the concept of "chewing her up and spitting her out" anyway?

It is the directive of 1 Thessalonians 5:19-21.

"Do not treat prophecies with contempt, but test them all; hold on to what is good, reject every kind of evil."

Walter would debate Ellen White (not treating the prophecies with contempt by formal debate).

Walter would then "chew Ellen White up" (test what Ellen White says) "and spit her out" (reject every kind of evil, in this case Ellen White's poison cocktail of mixed up law and gospel).

Go read Walter's book. Then you can "chew him up and spit him out," if you so choose. As you said, I am free to express my opinion on the matter. I have read both authors. You have not.
 

JonHawk

Active member

Law vs Grace​

AV Ro 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.


Every good and perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.
18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures. James 1
 
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SDAchristian

Well-known member
Law vs Grace
AV Ro 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Every good and perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.
18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures. James 1
AV Ro 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. 5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

"For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law", What specific laws is Paul referring to ???

Yours in Christ, Michael
 

JonHawk

Active member
And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts;
AV Ro 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. 5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

"For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law", What specific laws is Paul referring to ???
Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Sons and Heirs
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus; Gal 3
 
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