Lazarus and the rich man – parable or actual event?

puddleglum

Active member
From a Christian perspective, the entire passage is absurdly Abraham-centric rather than Christ-centric. Why having a dialog with Abraham rather than with Christ, the Savior of mankind? Why is Lazarus brought to Abraham rather than to Christ? Why ask Abraham rather than Christ to have pity on him? And so on. In addition, there is no mention in the Scriptures of Abraham having been translated to Heaven, now being ready to receive the departed saints.

The events in this account took place before the death and resurrection of Christ. Before this took place none of the dead went to Heaven. They went of a place called Sheol in the Old Testament and Hades in the new.
 

Alive

New Member
Has Eccl 9 been considered? Regarding the truly dead.

Eccl. 9:5 (ESVS) For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.
Eccl. 9:10 (ESVS) Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.
 
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Charles R

New Member
St.-Peter-at-the-Pearly-Gates[3].jpg

If the Rich Man and Lazarus is literal, then the Rich Man has a tongue and a finger.

The whole point of the story was the irony. The story isn't meant to reveal truth about the afterlife, it's just an
ironic story to demonstrate how flawed the character of the Rich Man was that he didn't even care about a poor
guy at his door that was being licked by dogs.

We have a similar foil in our culture which is the irony of standing before Peter at the pearly gates and finding
out some ironic truth about the character of the person standing there. Such cartoons are not meant to reveal
truth about the after life, they are just designed to be ironic.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
In Luke 16:19-31 Jesus tells the story of a rich man and a beggar named Lazarus and describes how they lived in this life and what their circumstances were after they died.



This story follows a group of parables and there is much disagreement as to whether this in another parable or a record of something that actually happened.

To answer this question we need to look at exactly what a parable is. Luke 15:3-7 records a story by Jesus which is clearly identified as a parable.



Let’s look at exactly what Jesus did here. He told a story about a shepherd and a lost sheep. This was something the people were familiar with because they lived in a culture in which being a shepherd was a common occupation. Then he showed how this everyday event which they could see was like a heavenly event which they couldn’t see directly; the rejoicing by the shepherd was like the rejoicing that takes place in heaven when a sinner repents. A parable illustrates a spiritual truth by comparing it with something with which the listeners were familiar.

But does the story of Lazarus and the rich man follow this pattern? It begins by describing a rich man and a beggar who was at his gate seeking help. This was no doubt the sort of thing his listeners had seen. But Jesus doesn’t make any comparison between this situation and something in heaven. Instead he continues the story by telling how the two men died and what their circumstances were after death. In addition, two of the people in the parable, Lazarus and Abraham, are named, and we know for certain that Abraham was a real person. These departures from the usual pattern of parables show that this wasn’t a parable but an account of something that really happened.

This story is the plainest description found in the Bible of what happens after death. We know that at death the body completely ceases to function but we find here that the same thing isn’t true of the soul. It is separated from the body but still continues to function in the same way it did while still in the body.

In the Old Testament there are many references to a place called Sheol which is the place everyone went after death. Both the good and the bad went there. This is the same place as Hades, which is where the rich man ended up. Since he was able to see and speak to Abraham and Lazarus they must have been in Hades too, but in a different part. Abraham said there was a chasm between the place they were and the place the rich man was, so there was a separation between the righteous and the unrighteous even though they were in the same place.

The unsaved still go to Hades immediately after they die but that is no longer true of the saved. The death of Jesus has brought about a change in what happens to them. Jesus told the thief who repented that he would be in Paradise with him that same day.



We learn from 2 Corinthians 12:1-3 that Paradise is in the third heaven.


Hades is in heaven?


Ephesians 4:8-10 says, "Therefore it says, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.” (In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)"

Read that closer.

This shows that between his death and resurrection Jesus descended into Hades and took out all the righteous dead and took them to Paradise. Now whenever a believer dies his soul goes immediately to be with Jesus.

Even the unsaved won’t stay in Hades forever. Revelation 20 contains a description of the final judgment, when all those who are lost will be punished for eternity by being thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:13-15 says,

24 And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ Luke 16

What are fingers and tongues doing in the realm of disembodied souls?
 
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Dant01

Active member
.
What are fingers and tongues doing in the realm of disembodied souls

The available data suggests that the afterlife is some sort of parallel world where
there are equivalents to the things familiar in the natural world.

For example; normal water is a liquid compound consisting of the atomic elements
hydrogen and oxygen, whereas the chemistry of afterlife water very likely consists
of elements heretofore unheard of.

It's also very possible that people in the afterlife aren't totally disembodied but are
fitted with a body suitable for that environment made of something other than normal
flesh and bones.
_
 
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Our Lord's God

Well-known member
.


The available data suggests that the afterlife is some sort of parallel world where
there are equivalents to the things familiar in the natural world.

For example; normal water is a liquid compound consisting of the atomic elements
hydrogen and oxygen, whereas the chemistry of afterlife water very likely consists
of elements heretofore unheard of.

It's also very possible that people in the afterlife aren't totally disembodied but are
fitted with a body suitable for that environment made of something other than normal
flesh and bones.
_

Or maybe souls don't travel to this mysterious destination which people imagine.

Where do you think we might find Hades?
 

Dant01

Active member
.
Luke 16:22-23 . . And it came to pass, that the rich man also died, and was
buried. And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torments

Hades is translated from the Greek word haides (hah'-dace) which in ancient
Hellenistic culture was a netherworld location to which all the dead retired; both the
good dead and the bad dead, and the young dead and the old dead, both male and
female. (These days we'd have to include the non binary and those afflicted with
gender dysphoria)

Hades is often said to be "the grave" but that presents a bit of a problem because
the rich man is shown dialoguing with Abraham, who was himself deceased at the
time.

Are we expected to believe that a corpse is sentient, especially when Ecc 9:5
implies that a corpse lacks consciousness? And if sentient, then how is it possible
for a corpse in one grave to communicate with a corpse over in another grave? How
are their words reaching each other?
_
 
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Truther

Well-known member
In Luke 16:19-31 Jesus tells the story of a rich man and a beggar named Lazarus and describes how they lived in this life and what their circumstances were after they died.



This story follows a group of parables and there is much disagreement as to whether this in another parable or a record of something that actually happened.

To answer this question we need to look at exactly what a parable is. Luke 15:3-7 records a story by Jesus which is clearly identified as a parable.



Let’s look at exactly what Jesus did here. He told a story about a shepherd and a lost sheep. This was something the people were familiar with because they lived in a culture in which being a shepherd was a common occupation. Then he showed how this everyday event which they could see was like a heavenly event which they couldn’t see directly; the rejoicing by the shepherd was like the rejoicing that takes place in heaven when a sinner repents. A parable illustrates a spiritual truth by comparing it with something with which the listeners were familiar.

But does the story of Lazarus and the rich man follow this pattern? It begins by describing a rich man and a beggar who was at his gate seeking help. This was no doubt the sort of thing his listeners had seen. But Jesus doesn’t make any comparison between this situation and something in heaven. Instead he continues the story by telling how the two men died and what their circumstances were after death. In addition, two of the people in the parable, Lazarus and Abraham, are named, and we know for certain that Abraham was a real person. These departures from the usual pattern of parables show that this wasn’t a parable but an account of something that really happened.

This story is the plainest description found in the Bible of what happens after death. We know that at death the body completely ceases to function but we find here that the same thing isn’t true of the soul. It is separated from the body but still continues to function in the same way it did while still in the body.

In the Old Testament there are many references to a place called Sheol which is the place everyone went after death. Both the good and the bad went there. This is the same place as Hades, which is where the rich man ended up. Since he was able to see and speak to Abraham and Lazarus they must have been in Hades too, but in a different part. Abraham said there was a chasm between the place they were and the place the rich man was, so there was a separation between the righteous and the unrighteous even though they were in the same place.

The unsaved still go to Hades immediately after they die but that is no longer true of the saved. The death of Jesus has brought about a change in what happens to them. Jesus told the thief who repented that he would be in Paradise with him that same day.



We learn from 2 Corinthians 12:1-3 that Paradise is in the third heaven.



Ephesians 4:8-10 says,



This shows that between his death and resurrection Jesus descended into Hades and took out all the righteous dead and took them to Paradise. Now whenever a believer dies his soul goes immediately to be with Jesus.

Even the unsaved won’t stay in Hades forever. Revelation 20 contains a description of the final judgment, when all those who are lost will be punished for eternity by being thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:13-15 says,
Actual event
 
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