IOW, you don’t understand what foreknowledge of God means.
Lazarus ....!
- Thread starter Howie
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IOW, you don’t understand what foreknowledge of God means.
Leatherneck0311
Well-known member
You’re saying believing that God is omniscient is heresy ? If it is I am in pretty good company. edit per mod
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Leatherneck0311
Well-known member
Nope, that would be YOU that has no clue.
Stop making up arguments. You're famous for doing that.
Oh, but I do. I know God isn't dependent on any decision or doing of man in order to carry out His perfect will. You are the one promoting that idea.
How about you tell us the 'how' of Gods foreknowledge.
Leatherneck0311
Well-known member
Leatherneck0311
Well-known member
Why did you edit out my comment ? edit per mod
Wonderful verses.
Tell us what foreknowledge of God it was the He used to make His choices. WHAT did God foreknow before making the choice to predestine someone? Was it foreknowledge of the choices said person would make?
Nonsense. I'm throwing doubt on your understanding of the foreknowledge of God. Nowhere in either verse you quote does it say God is dependent upon the choices of men to determine predestination.
Rule violations. Follow the board rules. Even this post of yours is a violation.
Beloved Daughter
Super Member
Hypotheticals are not taught in scriptures. God is omnisicient, omnipresent, and ominipotent and they are CLEARLY taught. No guess work.
You have been provided the scripture (the KJV translators based their Calvinistic doctrine on). I went so far as to provide the verses from the KJV.
Here they are again:
Calvinism KJV verses
John 6:37-39 King James Version (KJV)
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I /should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:44 King James Version (KJV)
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Romans 9:14-24 King James Version (KJV)
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Ephesians 1:3-11 King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Ephesians 2:8-10 King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Acts 13:48 King James Version (KJV)
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Colossians 2:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
1 Peter 1:3 King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
2 Timothy 2:25 King James Version (KJV)
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
Romans 8:26-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
SovereignGrace
Well-known member
Tells us exactly how God does His foreknowledge. Exactly how does this unfold in the scriptures?
American Gothic
Well-known member
"All that/those the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out." John 6
did God the Son have to know before the Creaton who each of these individuals are/will be?
or does He find out as/when God the Father lets Him know?
did God the Son have to know before the Creaton who each of these individuals are/will be?
or does He find out as/when God the Father lets Him know?
To answer your question, let’s take 1 Pet 1-2 as one election example. In 1 Pet 1:1-2, it was God’s foreknowledge that many Jews were to be dispersed across northern and central Anatolia. And those Jewish Diaspora, who would later become Christians, would be in a position and location to advance the Kingdom of God through their obedience to their election call.
1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect sojourners of the Dispersion of Pontus, of Galatia, of Cappadocia, of Asia, and of Bithynia,
1Pe 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, to obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ. May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
Notice the “sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ”. That is very closely tied to the obedience shout of the Jews in the OT to their holy calling. And then the High Priest would sprinkle blood on them afterwards.
Exo 24:7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the ears of the people. And they said, All that Jehovah has said we will do, and be obedient.
Exo 24:8 And Moses took the blood and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which Jehovah has made with you concerning all these words.
In summary, our Election call is a preordained work/role that God has preassigned to His elect, based on His foreknowledge, for them to accomplish in order to further the Kingdom of God. Good works are an integral part of that as they are preordained for us (Eph 2:10). That’s why our election is conditional on our diligence (2 Pet 1:10). Our holy calling (election) is a work/task/calling that needs to be performed with diligence. Furthermore, any attempt to conflate salvation/predestination with election (preordained good works/role) is to promote a works based salvation.
David1701
Well-known member
Right, how about this then: we are elect according to the foreknowledge of God. Everyone agrees with that; however, not everyone agrees about what foreknowledge is. That is the reason for the two questions, questions which you have, thus far, not even attempted to answer.
Since God grants us repentance and faith AND preordained our works, then He’s not looking to first see what man does before predestination
No it isn’t. We are kept by the power of God. Jesus will lose none of His sheep.
Reformedguy
Well-known member
Nowhere does the Bible say election is conditional.
The Bible reveals that our election is conditional on us being positioned "in Him". There is no getting around that fact.
(Eph 1:4) "according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,"
The Ephesians were told that they "were without Christ" and they are "now in Christ Jesus". When do you think they were positioned "in Christ"?
(Eph 2:11) Therefore remember that you, the nations, in time past were in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
(Eph 2:12) and that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.
(Eph 2:13) But now in Christ Jesus you who were once afar off are made near by the blood of Christ.
Please forward Bible verse that explicitly says that all sheep are unconditionally saved.
I would bank on being "in Christ" as the assurance of not only my salvation but also my election.
Reformedguy
Well-known member
It does not say our election is conditional
No, it doesn't.
From the foundation of the world He predestined us. Those IN CHRIST, stay IN CHRIST.
We are kept by the power of God, sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise who is the GUARANTEE of our inheritance.
Jesus will lose NONE that the Father has given to Him....His sheep shall NEVER perish.
No kidding. Those predestined are IN CHRIST....and will stay there....by the power of God.
Our election is conditional on being positioned "in Him" and on our diligence:
2 Pet 1:10 "Therefore, brothers, rather be diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you do these things, you shall never fall."
Eph 1:4 "according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, "