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guest1
Guest
I asked you the question.
Lazarus ....!
- Thread starter Howie
- Start date
I asked you the question.
Good. Then you can answer it.
Dizerner
Well-known member
What spiritual death entails is a fairly sophisticated question, but what I find very strange, is many Calvinists will say God can literally raise a dead person to spiritual life again, but cannot possibly have the power to temporarily enable them.
It seems to me, on a power scale, it has to be easier to make a dead person temporarily enabled than completely bring them to a brand new resurrection of life again.
And thus, we see, that the doctrine of inability and depravity does not in any way forbid dead and unregenerate people from understanding the Gospel, if we add in the necessary grace they need to be enabled to understand and perceive it.
It seems to me, on a power scale, it has to be easier to make a dead person temporarily enabled than completely bring them to a brand new resurrection of life again.
And thus, we see, that the doctrine of inability and depravity does not in any way forbid dead and unregenerate people from understanding the Gospel, if we add in the necessary grace they need to be enabled to understand and perceive it.
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guest1
Guest
Indeed its nothing but conflating and equivocating on their part with the dead and inability. I demonstrated that in another thread plus the parables where the unregenerate placed their faith ( not the faith Jesus gave them ) to be saved and healed.
So you admit the dead and unregenerate cannot respond unless God grants them that ability.
No, you didn't.
Reformedguy
Well-known member
You know what it means.
Lazarus did.
Conversely, Paul continued to face the possibility of spiritual death which throws the Calvinist PoS theory for a 100 yard loss:
Rom 7:14: For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:24: O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 8:6: For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace
Only if Christ is in you, are you alive which also throws the Calvinist unconditional election theory for another 100 yard loss.
Rom 8:2: But the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ is in you, indeed the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
None of that refers to the possibility of spiritual death, but it refers to being carnal and the One who can deliver us.
Not even remotely.
Yes, Jesus frees the elect from sin and death.
Christ is in the elect.
Joe
Well-known member
I agree.
Calvinists often conflate being dead physically to being dead figuratively. One definition is literally being dead, cut off from life, no longer living, while the other definition is being dead in relations to God because of sin and yet alive physically. The one who is literally dead cannot do anything the living can do. The one that is living and yet dead in sin can be reborn-given a new life once they place faith in Christ; all of this by God's grace through faith.
The Calvinist often uses the literal dead state of Lazarus as the example of man's dead state towards God, and yet the definition of dead in these two instances are not the same. With Lazarus, our Lord purposely allowed Lazarus to die "so that the Son of God may be glorified through it."...To prove He is truly God's Son. The context of Lazarus' resurrection was to validate the Lord's deity. Lazarus was cut of from the living and unable to escape his situation. It took God to raise him from the state of death to being living once again. The context of Ephesians is to declare God's love and mercy that He made us alive in Christ while we were dead in relationship to Him. We could not escape our dead relationship with God. It took God to restore us back to Himself. "in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God." (2Co 5:19-20)
Lazarus being dead meant he was literally dead. Ephesians being dead is one of relationship with God, which we know God had to restore in Christ, of which Paul states to the Corinthians "God making his appeal through us. We beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.".
It is clear Lazarus could do nothing in his state of death, but dead in sin man can be reconciled to God by believing the message of reconciliation, the Good News of Christ.
God bless
Joe
Well-known member
Lazarus was dead and was raised back to life by the force of Christ's command. In what way do you think Lazarus was raised if not by the force of Christ's command? So, yes, Lazarus was forced=done by force back to life.
Leatherneck0311
Well-known member
Christ is in whoever believes in Him, places their faith in Him, repents and follows Him I.e. the whosoever in John 3:16/1John 2:2/Revelation 22:17. People join the elect by obeying God’s requirements not by a heavenly lottery.
Joe
Well-known member
No, that is your theology presumably. What does the force of Christ raising a physically dead man have to do with an unregenerate man believing? The actions have nothing in common? But that is what you believe correct? That the force in resurrecting a dead man is the same force in an unregenerate man believing because he is dead in sin? The problem you have is one is dead physically and the other dead relationally.
The one physically dead cannot change his situation, while the one relationally dead can change his situation, as the Apostle Paul stated, "God making his appeal through us. We beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God."
So the physically dead must be raised by the force of Christ, while the unbelieving can be saved by believing. Every man will be raised by the force of Christ, but not every man unfortunately will be saved.
Reformedguy
Well-known member
Joe
Well-known member
Force = The capacity to do work or cause physical change; energy, strength, or active power: the force of an explosion.
Your definition cannot be applicable to Lazarus since he was dead physically and it took the force of Christ to raise him. Why do you conflate the terms of force used to raise a physically dead man and one dead relationally? The one dead physically needed the force of Christ to change his situation, while the one dead relationally needed the blood of Christ to change his situation.
The physically dead are cut off from life and no longer can change their situation, while those dead in relation to God can change their situation because "in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them". That is why the Apostle Paul stated, "we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God."