Lazarus ....!

[Christian]

Sure. I would say that Romans 9 would clariify the meaning of Second Thessalonians because we are not Chosen for Election according to our Will, but 2 Thess means we are Chosen by God because we are Justified due to our Faith...

I would expect us to talk about whether one Verse can modify another Verse or not; they can't. Verses are carved in stone with God's finger, so we can only modify our understanding which is derived from these two Verses. Romans 9 says we are not Chosen because of our Will, and 2 Thess says we are Chosen due to our Will; the only way to resolve this Contradiction is to ask what are we being Chosen to; Election or Justification? Election and Justification are not the same Category, so God chooses us to be Justified through our Belief in the Truth, but he does not Elect us due to our Will to Believe the Truth...

The demons believe the Truth; and tremble...

Now only if you were to use that same reasoning above with Gods innate attributes

 

[ReverendRV]

Now only if you were to use that same reasoning above with God's innate attributes

I'm glad you approve

Hopefully I already do it...

 

[Christian]

I'm glad you approve

Hopefully I already do it...

I had this discussion in the Mens group this morning as one person mentioned God created evil / sin. After his comment I jumped in since we were discussing Genesis 1-2 and reminded everyone that God declared everything He created was good . It was an indirect attack unknowingly on Gods nature and character which results in bad theology .

 

[ReverendRV]

I had this discussion in the Mens group this morning as one person mentioned God created evil / sin. After his comment I jumped in since we were discussing Genesis 1-2 and reminded everyone that God declared everything He created was good . It was an indirect attack unknowingly on Gods nature and character which results in bad theology .

If you and I were in the same group, it would be interesting for sure. Just like it is here..

 

[Christian]

If you and I were in the same group, it would be interesting for sure. Just like it is here..

When you are in the neighborhood look me up and you can come to any of our weekly small home groups or Mens meetings

 

[Theo1689]

I had this discussion in the Mens group this morning as one person mentioned God created evil / sin. After his comment I jumped in since we were discussing Genesis 1-2 and reminded everyone that God declared everything He created was good . It was an indirect attack unknowingly on Gods nature and character which results in bad theology .

Hmmm... Badmouthing people behind their backs, huh?

 

[Christian]

Hmmm... Badmouthing people behind their backs, huh?

Not at all and all 15 men affirmed what I said . You are imagining things .

Why would you conflate biblical correction and receiving that correction with humility and try associating it with bad mouthing ?

hope this helps !!!

 

[Synergy]

Sure. I would say that Romans 9 would clariify the meaning of Second Thessalonians because we are not Chosen for Election according to our Will, but 2 Thess means we are Chosen by God because we are Justified due to our Faith...

I would expect us to talk about whether one Verse can modify another Verse or not; they can't. Verses are carved in stone with God's finger, so we can only modify our understanding which is derived from these two Verses. Romans 9 says we are not Chosen because of our Will, and 2 Thess says we are Chosen due to our Will; the only way to resolve this Contradiction is to ask what are we being Chosen to; Election or Justification? Election and Justification are not the same Category, so God chooses us to be Justified through our Belief in the Truth, but he does not Elect us due to our Will to Believe the Truth...

The demons believe the Truth; and tremble...

I present Rom 10:9-17 as the summit/climax for Rom 9 and I show below how all Election/Salvation verses presented so far can be harmonized:

Harmonization:
Historically, for OT believers: Election of Israel was unconditional because the purpose of God, being the Cross, according to election had to stand (Rom 9).
Now, for NT believers: Election to salvation is conditional* through belief in the truth (2 Th 2:13). Belief “in Christ” is very well expounded upon in Rom 10:9-17.
Why the difference between OT election and NT election? The Holy Cross and Pentecost. Both together have made it possible, through faith, for us to become sons of God, predestined to adoption, inheritance, and conformity to Christ.

* Here is an analogy illustrating how "belief of the truth" can be viewed as a condition of "election to salvation":
Let's say your trip to Chicago can only go through a particular highway. Since taking that highway is obligatory then that makes going through Hwy 80 a condition you must satisfy if you are ever to get to Chicago. Now substitute "belief in the truth" for the highway and "election to salvation" for Chicago and you get the point. Generally speaking, If a means is obligatory to arrive at an end then the attainment of that end is conditional on properly executing the means.

In Summary:
It seems to me that Calvinists have bent NT conditional salvation into being perceived as unconditional (in their minds) so that it can be absorbed and conflated with OT unconditional election. That's where their idea that God unconditionally elects some to salvation and all others to destruction comes from.
I could say more but it's getting late and I think I've said enough for this time around.

 

[Christian]

I present Rom 10:9-17 as the summit/climax for Rom 9 and I show below how all Election/Salvation verses presented so far can be harmonized:

Harmonization:
Historically, for OT believers: Election of Israel was unconditional because the purpose of God, being the Cross, according to election had to stand (Rom 9).
Now, for NT believers: Election to salvation is conditional* through belief in the truth (2 Th 2:13). Belief “in Christ” is very well expounded upon in Rom 10:9-17.
Why the difference between OT election and NT election? The Holy Cross and Pentecost. Both together have made it possible, through faith, for us to become sons of God, predestined to adoption, inheritance, and conformity to Christ.

* Here is an analogy illustrating how "belief of the truth" can be viewed as a condition of "election to salvation":
Let's say your trip to Chicago can only go through a particular highway. Since taking that highway is obligatory then that makes going through Hwy 80 a condition you must satisfy if you are ever to get to Chicago. Now substitute "belief in the truth" for the highway and "election to salvation" for Chicago and you get the point. Generally speaking, If a means is obligatory to arrive at an end then the attainment of that end is conditional on properly executing the means.

In Summary:
It seems to me that Calvinists have bent NT conditional salvation into being perceived as unconditional (in their minds) so that it can be absorbed and conflated with OT unconditional election. That's where their idea that God unconditionally elects some to salvation and all others to destruction comes from.
I could say more but it's getting late and I think I've said enough for this time around.

I like the analogy !

 

[Theophilus]

I present Rom 10:9-17 as the summit/climax for Rom 9 and I show below how all Election/Salvation verses presented so far can be harmonized:

Harmonization:
Historically, for OT believers: Election of Israel was unconditional because the purpose of God, being the Cross, according to election had to stand (Rom 9).
Now, for NT believers: Election to salvation is conditional* through belief in the truth (2 Th 2:13). Belief “in Christ” is very well expounded upon in Rom 10:9-17.
Why the difference between OT election and NT election? The Holy Cross and Pentecost. Both together have made it possible, through faith, for us to become sons of God, predestined to adoption, inheritance, and conformity to Christ.

* Here is an analogy illustrating how "belief of the truth" can be viewed as a condition of "election to salvation":
Let's say your trip to Chicago can only go through a particular highway. Since taking that highway is obligatory then that makes going through Hwy 80 a condition you must satisfy if you are ever to get to Chicago. Now substitute "belief in the truth" for the highway and "election to salvation" for Chicago and you get the point. Generally speaking, If a means is obligatory to arrive at an end then the attainment of that end is conditional on properly executing the means.

In Summary:
It seems to me that Calvinists have bent NT conditional salvation into being perceived as unconditional (in their minds) so that it can be absorbed and conflated with OT unconditional election. That's where their idea that God unconditionally elects some to salvation and all others to destruction comes from.
I could say more but it's getting late and I think I've said enough for this time around.

Yes, very clear and precise presentation of your thoughts about his election.

 

[Howie]

I present Rom 10:9-17 as the summit/climax for Rom 9 and I show below how all Election/Salvation verses presented so far can be harmonized:

Harmonization:
Historically, for OT believers: Election of Israel was unconditional ...

Prove that.

... because the purpose of God, being the Cross, according to election had to stand (Rom 9).

Election of whom to what?

 

[Howie]

In Summary:
It seems to me that Calvinists have bent NT conditional salvation into being perceived as unconditional (in their minds) so that it can be absorbed and conflated with OT unconditional election. That's where their idea that God unconditionally elects some to salvation and all others to destruction comes from.
I could say more but it's getting late and I think I've said enough for this time around.

Is it your position the Mosaic Covenant was unilateral?

 

[Synergy]

Sure. I would say that Romans 9 would clariify the meaning of Second Thessalonians because we are not Chosen for Election according to our Will, but 2 Thess means we are Chosen by God because we are Justified due to our Faith...

I would expect us to talk about whether one Verse can modify another Verse or not; they can't. Verses are carved in stone with God's finger, so we can only modify our understanding which is derived from these two Verses. Romans 9 says we are not Chosen because of our Will, and 2 Thess says we are Chosen due to our Will; the only way to resolve this Contradiction is to ask what are we being Chosen to; Election or Justification?

"Chosen to; Election"? It's like saying saved to; salvation or justified to; justification. Please explain.

The verse I had forwarded (2 Th 2:13) talked about salvation. What about salvation? Justification does not equate to Salvation. For example, OT believers were justified but they were not yet saved. Everyone is saved only at the foot of the Cross, no exceptions.

Election and Justification are not the same Category, so God chooses us to be Justified through our Belief in the Truth, but he does not Elect us due to our Will to Believe the Truth...

You're attempting to take man's will out of his path to salvation? Although Christ is the Savior, He has 2 wills, divine and human, both of which he expressed many times in the Bible. To render us non-volitional is a disservice to our humanity.

The demons believe the Truth; and tremble...

 

[Howie]

"Chosen to; Election"? It's like saying saved to; salvation or justified to; justification. Please explain.

The verse I had forwarded (2 Th 2:13) talked about salvation. What about salvation? Justification does not equate to Salvation.

Prove that, please.

For example, OT believers were justified but they were not yet saved.

Prove the OT saints were not saved by Christ at the time they died.

Everyone is saved only at the foot of the Cross, no exceptions.

Correct, and ... ?

You're attempting to take man's will out of his path to salvation? Although Christ is the Savior, He has 2 wills, divine and human, both of which he expressed many times in the Bible. To render us non-volitional is a disservice to our humanity.

Man is volitional. Please explain how I am rendering man "non-volitional?"

 

[ReverendRV]

"Chosen to; Election"? It's like saying saved to; salvation or justified to; justification. Please explain.

The verse I had forwarded (2 Th 2:13) talked about salvation. What about salvation? Justification does not equate to Salvation. For example, OT believers were justified but they were not yet saved. Everyone is saved only at the foot of the Cross, no exceptions.

You're attempting to take man's will out of his path to salvation? Although Christ is the Savior, He has 2 wills, divine and human, both of which he expressed many times in the Bible. To render us non-volitional is a disservice to our humanity.

I'm sorry that I haven't been able to place enough time in our conversation. Sometimes I have plenty of times, sometimes I don't..

 

[Christian]

"Chosen to; Election"? It's like saying saved to; salvation or justified to; justification. Please explain.

The verse I had forwarded (2 Th 2:13) talked about salvation. What about salvation? Justification does not equate to Salvation. For example, OT believers were justified but they were not yet saved. Everyone is saved only at the foot of the Cross, no exceptions.

You're attempting to take man's will out of his path to salvation? Although Christ is the Savior, He has 2 wills, divine and human, both of which he expressed many times in the Bible. To render us non-volitional is a disservice to our humanity.

Well said brother

 

[Synergy]

I'm sorry that I haven't been able to place enough time in our conversation. Sometimes I have plenty of times, sometimes I don't..

No problem whatsoever. Take your time and I suggest all interested viewers/responders allow for that too so that we can see where we are in this conversation.

 

[Christian]

No problem whatsoever. Take your time and I suggest all interested viewers/responders allow for that too so that we can see where we are in this conversation.

Amen brother

 

[Alexander the adequate]

Jn 11:43-44 ... And when He had said these things, He cried out with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” Out came the man who had died, bound hand and foot with wrappings, and his face was wrapped around with a cloth. Jesus *said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go.”

Did Jesus force Lazarus to come to life? ?

If you mean force as in against his will, we have nothing that indicates lazarus did not want to come back to earth
If you mean force in the sense of controlling the supernatural world, then yes

 

[Alexander the adequate]

the unregenerate are conscious after death. Read about the rich man and lazarus in abrahams bosom. Your argument with dead/death fails again.

nekros: dead

Original Word: νεκρός, ά, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: nekros
Phonetic Spelling: (nek-ros')
Definition: dead
Usage: (a) adj: dead, lifeless, subject to death, mortal, (b) noun: a dead body, a corpse.


3498 nekrós (an adjective, derived from nekys, "a corpse, a dead body") – dead; literally, "what lacks life"; dead; (figuratively) not able to respond to impulses, or perform functions ("unable, ineffective, dead, powerless," L & N, 1, 74.28)

yes. you are right that jesus portrays the unrighteous dead as conscious and thinking and knowing spiritual truth