LDS and adding something to the Finished work of Christ

The Prophet

Active member
So again (you seem to be missing this, perhaps intentionally?), your "presence" is 100% UNNECESSARY.



Thank you for stating the obvious, Sherlock...

So where does the Bible teach "temple recommend interviews"?
You're simply making excuses.



Then your participation is 100% unnecessary.
Have you figured that out yet?
Another question would be where does the Book of Mormon mention "temple recommend interviews"?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Do you not see how foolish and nonsensical is your answer?

Why would YOU need to be adopted to your parents, when you were ALREADY their child at birth?

One wouldn't. That's the reason there has to be an adoption--because the One who adopts us--is neither the Father of our spirits, nor our mortal flesh.

Here are the birth parents for the flesh and spirit:

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Jesus Christ is not listed there. He is neither the father of our flesh--nor our spirits. In fact--Jesus shares the same Father of His spirit--as mankind does:

John 20:17---King James Version
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


Hence--a need for an adoption.

Wouldn't you already be by nature, a child of your parents?

Bingo!!!! IOW--you were the child of your birth parents--BEFORE the adoption occurs.

One becomes a son or daughter of the adoptive parent AFTER the adoption. One still has natural parents after the adoption, and before the adoption.

And--the birth parents and the adoptive parents--cannot be the same. As you stated--you would already be the child of your birth parents.

so, you wouldyou need the right TO BECOME the child of your parents?
If it were parents, as to an adoption--yes. That has to be adjudicated.

And that is how we become sons of God--through an adoption. And the reason is--Jesus Christ is neither the father of our flesh--nor our spirits.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
The Bishop does not usually sign the temple recommend in our local, and he usually does not do the interviews. I usually do the temple recommend interviews--and sign them, and I'm not the Bishop.

My signing usually designates who conducted the temple recommend--and I'm cautioned by the leaders to not question the applicant's answers, unless the Spirit directly intervenes. That has only happened once--and I allowed the applicant to make the final decision.

The interview is designed for the applicant to declare if they feel they are worthy to enter the temple--and that is the last question asked of the applicant-- by the one conducting the interview.
Now that’s a very scary thought.

And no. The interview and recommend are for the church to determine a person’s “worthiness,” and exercise control. Otherwise it wouldn’t be needed at all, and anyone could attend the temple.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Why do you forget that we DID have a "father" before our conversion? Have you forgotten what Eph. 2:3 says, that we are, BY NATURE, CHILDREN OF WRATH?
Why do you insist on using that in a literal sense when you have stated several times that it is figurative. You know that Wrath cannot have children. Therefore we are not the offspring of wrath. We are the offspring of God.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Can't you see that Jesus calls us His brothers and sisters, but never his sons and daughters?
That is the general idea. We are aware of our relationship to Jesus as a spirit son or daughter of God, both the believing and the unbelieving, just as that passage states. Jesus also clearly states the same message to Mary before he ascends to His God and Our God, His Father and Our Father. He only becomes our Father through the adoption.

It is clear in Isaiah that one of Jesus' titles is "everlasting Father". How do you explain that? How is Jesus a everlasting Father (Isa 9:6) and to whom do you think he becomes an everlasting Father to?
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
And how do we "become" worthy in God's eyes?
By believing in Christ and doing his works. If one does not do what he believes, then one does not believe.
By becoming Mormons and going through the temple endowment and making and keeping all of the covenants and doing all the temple works, like observing the WoW, and being married and having one's marriage "sealed" in the temple, and maintaining a temple recommend until death?
Again, this has nothing to do with Salvation and we do not teach that it does. You have listed a series of incoherent babblings so there's really not much to answer about it, but the fact remains, worthiness to enter the temple is only for the living who desire the blessings of the temple. That has nothing to do with exaltation, though baptism and eternal marriage do.. these two items will be made available to everyone who ever lived on the earth.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
How wonderful that Jesus accepts us just as we are--warts, sins, stains and all! We are totally UNworthy. But HE IS worthy, halleluiah!
If this were true then everyone would be accepted into heaven. Since we know that not everyone is accepted into heaven, then those who are accepted must do something different than those who are not. I believe your statement is flatly false. Jesus accepts only those who hear his voice and we know who hears his voice because they do what he tells them to do.

The scenario that we see often among Christians everywhere is that they hear his voice, but they don't do. Like the parent to calls out to his child to stop doing something or to do something. We know that they hear their parent, but sometimes pretend not to hear so they can continue doing what they want to do. Those who indulge themselves in their own private ambitions ignoring the voice that they claim the follow.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
And no. The interview and recommend are for the church to determine a person’s “worthiness,” and exercise control. Otherwise it wouldn’t be needed at all, and anyone could attend the temple.

I don't know where you get that thought from--but you believe whatever you like. I do the interviews--and I know what I am taught to do in those interviews. I conduct the temple interviews. I sign the temple recommends.

How you believe you know more about it than I do--I have no idea.

The applicant determines their own worthiness. If they determine they are worthy, in accordance with the temple recommend questions----then I sign their recommends.

Not everyone can answer they comply with the temple recommend questions--and those who can't--don't request temple recommend interviews. They determine whether they are worthy to enter also.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
If this were true then everyone would be accepted into heaven. Since we know that not everyone is accepted into heaven, then those who are accepted must do something different than those who are not. I believe your statement is flatly false. Jesus accepts only those who hear his voice and we know who hears his voice because they do what he tells them to do.

The scenario that we see often among Christians everywhere is that they hear his voice, but they don't do. Like the parent to calls out to his child to stop doing something or to do something. We know that they hear their parent, but sometimes pretend not to hear so they can continue doing what they want to do. Those who indulge themselves in their own private ambitions ignoring the voice that they claim the follow.
You don't get it. Jesus Christ came to save sinners, not those who are "worthy" of salvation--because NONE OF US IS WORTHY. He came to "seek and to save, those who are lost." Does the lost sheep do anything to "deserve" having the shepherd go look for him and find him?

Do you even know what it means to be a NEW creation in Christ Jesus our Lord? Don't you know that when we are made a new creation in Him, we also then WANT to do what is right and pleasing to God? We no longer walk in sin but walk in righteousness? Have you forgotten what Paul writes about this:

Romans 6 New International Version (NIV)​

Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ​

6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

I don't think I have ever seen a Mormon on these boards use these verses to back up their Mormon beliefs.

Here is a link to lots more Bible verses, if you care to bother to read them:

https://www.openbible.info/topics/n...Creation In,Behold, I am doing a new... More

Unfortunately, Mormons try to make themselves "worthy" of being "exalted" to "godhood" by their temple works and covenants. But what they do inside those "temples" are dead works done to a false god that can save no one, but instead, drive the person even farther from the true Jesus Christ of the Bible and from eternal life in heaven with Him. But they can never make themselves worthy; we have NO worthiness of our own to boast about, nor can we do anything to make ourselves worthy. But guess what? Jesus died for us, anyway: "For while we were STILL sinners, Christ died for us." The just for the unjust; the worthy for the UNworthy.

Especially do NOT forget Eph. 2:10: "For we are God's workmanship, CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS FOR GOOD WORKS, which He has prepared in advance for us to do, so that we may walk in them."

Do you know what being "created in Christ Jesus for good works" means? And WHO it is who enables us to walk (DO) in them? And do you think Paul had temple works and covenants in mind when he wrote this?
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
I don't know where you get that thought from--but you believe whatever you like. I do the interviews--and I know what I am taught to do in those interviews. I conduct the temple interviews. I sign the temple recommends.

How you believe you know more about it than I do--I have no idea.

The applicant determines their own worthiness. If they determine they are worthy, in accordance with the temple recommend questions----then I sign their recommends.

Not everyone can answer they comply with the temple recommend questions--and those who can't--don't request temple recommend interviews. They determine whether they are worthy to enter also.
Lots of people lie in the interviews to get a recommend. There have been mormons here who said it didn’t matter if you drink or smoke. People lie about moral transgressions.

I had temple interviews every year from the time I was 21. I know what was asked, and it wasn’t just for my own benefit. If it were, you wouldn’t need a recommend and two interviews to get in.

I think you’re putting your own spin on it. Because the Mormon church I belonged to was not self-regulatory. You had to account to someone for everything. Did you do your home teaching every month, and did you report it? Someone called you to check on it if you didn’t. Did you pay a full tithing? Did you attend tithing settlement? They call you in for that. Deacons came to your home to collect fast offerings every month. Couldn’t just trust you to donate on your own. And you guys think that passing a plate is bad.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
If this were true then everyone would be accepted into heaven.

Simply not true.
If I give my children a free gift, that doesn't mean I'm obligated that YOUR children will get a fre gift.

Since we know that not everyone is accepted into heaven, then those who are accepted must do something different than those who are not.

Again, that is simply false, and you are ASSUMING salvation is "by works".

I believe your statement is flatly false. Jesus accepts only those who hear his voice and we know who hears his voice because they do what he tells them to do.

Do you "decide" what you hear?
Can you turn your hearing on and off, at will?

The scenario that we see often among Christians everywhere is that they hear his voice, but they don't do.

1) This forum isn't for discussing what "Christians everywhere" believe.
It's for discussing MORMONISM.

And your claim is wrong.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
One wouldn't. That's the reason there has to be an adoption--because the One who adopts us--is neither the Father of our spirits, nor our mortal flesh.

Here are the birth parents for the flesh and spirit:

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Jesus Christ is not listed there. He is neither the father of our flesh--nor our spirits. In fact--Jesus shares the same Father of His spirit--as mankind does:

John 20:17---King James Version
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


Hence--a need for an adoption.



Bingo!!!! IOW--you were the child of your birth parents--BEFORE the adoption occurs.

One becomes a son or daughter of the adoptive parent AFTER the adoption. One still has natural parents after the adoption, and before the adoption.

And--the birth parents and the adoptive parents--cannot be the same. As you stated--you would already be the child of your birth parents.


If it were parents, as to an adoption--yes. That has to be adjudicated.

And that is how we become sons of God--through an adoption. And the reason is--Jesus Christ is neither the father of our flesh--nor our spirits.
Don't you know that this adoption is spiritual and not physical? And has nothing to do with our physical parents?

But since your church teaches that we are ALL the literal spirit offspring of HF, and are supposedly ALREADY his children, why then, do we need to the right TO BECOME the children of this God? IF we already ARE from the pre-mortal, spirit existence?

And are you saying that we are adopted TO Jesus? Where does the Bible say that we are adopted TO Jesus Christ? Or that we need to be adopted TO HIM?

Eph. 1:

Ephesians 1:4-5 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us for adoption TO sonship THROUGH Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-

Do you not know the difference between "to" and "through"?
 
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brotherofJared

Well-known member
You don't get it.
You don't get it. If one does not do what they believe, then they don't believe. It's really just that simple.
Jesus Christ came to save sinners
everyone is a sinner. Does he save everyone into heaven? Yes or no?

If yes, then we have no more to discuss. That would be universal salvation and I see no point in discussing that.
If no, then what do those who are saved into heaven do differently than those who aren't?
He came to "seek and to save, those who are lost." Does the lost sheep do anything to "deserve" having the shepherd go look for him and find him?
I don't see how this is related to the fact that some people will not be saved. Everyone is undeserving, Certainly, we know that people who murder, steal, commit adultery are undeserving. Some of those people might be saved but I think we can agree that most of them won't. Those who are saved had to do something different from those who aren't. One would suspect that they would have to stop committing murders and stealing and committing adultery. Certainly, I hope you realize that much is probably correct, but even among sinners that do stop, some of them won't be saved. For example, the murderer who is murdered, stopped murdering, but does that mean he is now saved because he stopped? There is more to being raised to the resurrection of life than simply not doing bad things.

Bonnie, as long as there are people who will be saved and others that won't, those that are saved must have done something different than those that aren't. Yes, Jesus may recover the lost sheep, but it seems that those sheep were once part of his fold. How does one become part of his fold? Getting lost after being a part of the fold is completely different and has nothing to do with the resurrection to life or damnation.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Do you even know what it means to be a NEW creation in Christ Jesus our Lord?
yes. It means to follow Christ's teaching and do his will, more than that, it means to want to follow Christ, to sell all that one has, addictions, sins, bad manners, bad disposition, in general, to love everyone and live as an example of the believer.
Don't you know that when we are made a new creation in Him, we also then WANT to do what is right and pleasing to God?
Yes. I know that. And I know that those who don't do what's right and pleasing to God, then they aren't a new creation and that means that they aren't saved. I understand that the desire is there, but if you don't do it, then the desire is moot. It's like having faith without works. Faith is dead, desire is ineffective.
We no longer walk in sin but walk in righteousness?
This is true ONLY if you actually do walk in righteousness. If you are still walking in sin, then grace unto salvation will have no effect on you whatsoever. It doesn't matter what one claims to believe. If they don't do what they claim to believe, then they don't believe.
I don't think I have ever seen a Mormon on these boards use these verses to back up their Mormon beliefs.
Then you just aren't paying attention. Those verses basically say the same thing we've been saying all along. If one continues in sin, there is no newness of life in that person. Jesus paid for past sins so that we might live without sin, but nothing in those verses say anything about future sins.
Unfortunately, Mormons try to make themselves "worthy" of being "exalted" to "godhood" by their temple works and covenants.
Unfortunately, you are wrong. We try to walk in the newness of life by actually not walking in sin.
Especially do NOT forget Eph. 2:10: "For we are God's workmanship, CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS FOR GOOD WORKS, which He has prepared in advance for us to do, so that we may walk in them."
Yes. Try to remember Eph 2:10. If you don't walk in those good works, you can't be saved. It's just not going to happen.
Do you know what being "created in Christ Jesus for good works" means?
yep. It means walking in the newness of life, leaving the dead body of sin behind. If one does not walk in the newness of life, then they are not "created in Christ Jesus" for anything. But rather than accept that, you interject your own traditions into the passage to it says what you want it to say.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Don't you know that this adoption is spiritual and not physical?
What difference does it make?
And has nothing to do with our physical parents?
Who said it did?
But since your church teaches that we are ALL the literal spirit offspring of HF
Correction, that is what the Bible teaches.
and are supposedly ALREADY his children, why then, do we need to the right TO BECOME the children of this God?
The adoption is a legalized term that makes us co-equal to Christ in the resurrection. We were not co-equal with him before birth and certainly not in life, but are made co-equal in the resurrection if this adoption occurs and based on the terminology used, the right to that adoption is based on what we do, not one what Christ does. We have to receive Him. The invitation is open because the atonement was for all men. However, we know that many will not receive him mostly because they are deceived in this life.
And are you saying that we are adopted TO Jesus?
I believe that is what he is saying. Based on scripture, Jesus becomes our everlasting Father. This can only occur through an adoption because Jesus cannot be our natural father. We already have a natural father both in spirit and in the flesh (as the Bible testifies).
Do you not know the difference between "to" and "through"?
Yep. But as you have stated repeatedly, we cannot be adopted "to" our natural father. That is entirely unnecessary since we are already his offspring and since we know that Jesus is the being who is named our everlasting Father, we can surmise that the adoption is to Jesus and through Jesus.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Don't you know that this adoption is spiritual and not physical?
Seeing that we are adopted while in the physical body--then, yes--it does have something to do with the physical body.

And considering we will have physical bodies after the resurrection--it applies to the physical body now--and in the eternities.

The adoption occurs through the physical lineage:

Galatians 3:29---King James Version
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

That's the reason Christ came through the physical seed of Abraham--so, when we are adopted to Him--we also become the seed of Abraham:

Hebrews 2:16---King James Version
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.


And has nothing to do with our physical parents?

That still leaves both a physical parent--and a spirit Parent--prior to the adoption:

Hebrews 12:9---King James Version
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

And that was the main point of the discussion--we are still children of God the Father--before the adoption, IE--all spirits are offspring of God prior to the adoption:

Acts 17:29---King James Version
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.


So--how are pagans the offspring of God--if they are only sons of God in the adoption?

But since your church teaches that we are ALL the literal spirit offspring of HF, and are supposedly ALREADY his children, why then, do we need to the right TO BECOME the children of this God?
Because it's by adoption--not the natural parents.

Again--an adoption has to be adjudicated--and always presumes a previous F(f)ather.

Jesus Christ is neither the father of the flesh, nor the father of the spirit. For that reason, there has to be an adoption to become the children of God--through the adoption to God the Son.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Seeing that we are adopted while in the physical body--then, yes--it does have something to do with the physical body.

That's so fallacious, it's not funny.

That's like saying, "Since we are adopted while having eyes -- then, yes -- it does have something to do with our eye colour."

And considering we will have physical bodies after the resurrection--it applies to the physical body now--and in the eternities.

The adoption occurs through the physical lineage:

Galatians 3:29---King James Version
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

<Chuckle>

We are "Abraham's seed", because we have FAITH, like Abraham did.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
We are "Abraham's seed", because we have FAITH, like Abraham did.
The scripture testified we are Abraham's seed because we are Christ's:

Galatians 3:29---King James Version
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

We are Christ's because He adopts us as sons.

Becoming Abraham's seed through our adoption to Christ is made possible because the man Christ came through the Abrahamic lineage:

Hebrews 2:16---King James Version
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
The scripture testified we are Abraham's seed because we are Christ's:

Galatians 3:29---King James Version
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

We are Christ's because He adopts us as sons.

Becoming Abraham's seed through our adoption to Christ is made possible because the man Christ came through the Abrahamic lineage:

Hebrews 2:16---King James Version
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Bump for the critics
 
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