LDS and adding something to the Finished work of Christ

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
All of the people who have translated the Greek to English say your wrong. ;)


These are the words of Jesus.

Matthew 20:28

28 even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

Mark 10:45

45 For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member

These are the words of Jesus.

Matthew 20:28

28 even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

Mark 10:45

45 For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
If all men are many in number--then there is no anomaly there.

There is one point where "many" is a contradiction:

Matthew 7:14---King James Version
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
dberrie2020 said:
It states all men received it:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Here is the context:--"the offence of one judgment came upon all men"

So--did the condemnation of the Fall come on all men--or just some?

I'm very familiar with Romans 5:18.

The condemnation came upon all men. But not all men will be saved. Only the elect are chosen.

Ephesians 1:3-11English Standard Version (ESV)

Spiritual Blessings in Christ


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[a] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[b] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
I don't know where anyone has argued the elect are chosen, or that God knows in advance who will choose Him.

So--are the "all men" who were condemned due to the Fall--referring to the totality of mankind?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
But all men receive the blessings of the atonement. Yes. Not all men will be saved. The atonement makes it possible that all men can be saved, but those who are saved must do something differently than those who are not saved. What they do differently is what saves them and they must do it or they cannot be saved. If they start doing it and then stop doing it, then they cannot be saved. This is an eternity long endeavor.
What they do differently IS BELIEVE the Gospel message, that Jesus is the Son of God, the savior, and that we have forgiveness of sins in His Name. Jesus said, "Unless you BELIEVE that I AM, you will die in your sins." Translators usually add something like "He" or "I am Who I say I am", but it can stand alone, in its own strength. The GREAT I AM.

ALL Mormons have is Satan's elder brother (!) In the supposed pre-mortal existence. Big whoop.
 
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brotherofJared

Well-known member
That's not true.
It is true.
You have been provided the Greek translation.
I have been provided with many Greek translations. With the exception of your twist, they say or imply all men. It's not really a hard thing to grasp. The translators were able to grasp the comparison between the curse that came upon all me with the atonement which came upon all men. As db pointed out, do you know any one besides Christ who has lived on this planet or who will live on it that will not die? Anyone?

Your translation is not a translation, but an interpretation.
If you don't want to believe it, that's on you.
If you don't want to believe it, that's on you. ;)
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
What they do differently IS BELIEVE the Gospel message,
LOL. That is not the gospel message. That's your message. It's the message of 1000s of fractured and fragmented Christian religions. If you don't believe the way I do... :rolleyes:

I am glad that my church does not believe that. We believe that all men regardless of when they were born or what church they belong to will have an opportunity for salvation. God is patient. His plan for happiness covers all his children (that's every single person who has ever lived or will live on this planet).
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Matthew 20:28

28 even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

Mark 10:45

45 For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
Yep. These are two versions of the same event. It's a good thing agree. The blood of Christ pays the debt for those who believe. That is Salvation. But the atonement, covers all... everyone. If one does not do what they believe, they do not believe.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
What they do differently IS BELIEVE the Gospel message, that Jesus is the Son of God, the savior, and that we have forgiveness of sins in His Name.
Could you explain for us how that differs from LDS beliefs?

Bonnie, the truth is--if one believed the gospel message--then they would believe the Biblical witness:

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

That's the LDS theology--and it defies the "gospel" the critics attempt to pawn here.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
LOL. That is not the gospel message. That's your message. It's the message of 1000s of fractured and fragmented Christian religions. If you don't believe the way I do... :rolleyes:

I am glad that my church does not believe that. We believe that all men regardless of when they were born or what church they belong to will have an opportunity for salvation. God is patient. His plan for happiness covers all his children (that's every single person who has ever lived or will live on this planet).
Amen!!!
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Where are you getting the idea the LDS add anything to the finished works of Jesus Christ? Cite, please.

As I have maintained for years here--you seem to be the one who believes one has to add something to the finished work of Jesus Christ.

The LDS believe it is an absolute free gift:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

All men. Those who have faith--those who don't.

You have postulated for years one has to add their faith to that in order for it to come as a free gift to one. I disagree. We have to add NOTHING to Christ's perfect sacrifice and His free gift to all men. His free gift--not His and yours. Nor His and mine.

IOW--one would have to take the stance of the Reformed church to believe that---as all men include those who will never have faith in Christ--and yet--it was a free gift to them also, or else--God didn't die for them also, and the free gift was only to them which are the elect(predestination). Limited Atonement. Bonnie--it was a free gift to all men--even those who would never have faith in Christ. And that free gift was death and hell ---was conquered for all men, as it relates to the Fall. The curse was found--and all men now have the OPPORTUNITY to inherit life, because of the free gift of the Atonement and resurrection(death and hell)--and that free gift had nothing to do with your faith. Free. Christ alone. Done. Over. Finished. Nailed to the Cross. And finished when He finished it--not when you add faith to it.

The LDS believe it was God alone--God plus nothing, and especially not your imperfect faith, nor mine--- because if that were added--the Atonement would have failed.

So--I don't know what you are talking about--and neither do you, IMO--when you say the LDS feel they have to add something to His work. You are the one who advocates we have to add something--not the LDS.

Comments?
bump for anyone
 

Bonnie

Super Member
LOL. That is not the gospel message. That's your message. It's the message of 1000s of fractured and fragmented Christian religions. If you don't believe the way I do... :rolleyes:

I am glad that my church does not believe that. We believe that all men regardless of when they were born or what church they belong to will have an opportunity for salvation. God is patient. His plan for happiness covers all his children (that's every single person who has ever lived or will live on this planet).
No, it isn't. ALL the more orthodox Christian faiths have the same core teachings about salvation. Note: I said ORTHODOX.

I cannot speak for other churches, but in MY church body, we do not teach that we are the ONLY true church on the planet and one must believe as we do, or one cannot be saved.

However, your church DOES teach that it is the one true church on earth and one must be a baptized Mormon and do all of the temple works and covenants if one wants FULL salvation to exaltation and godhood, in the CK.


One doctrine presents a particular challenge. It is our firm conviction that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is, as the revelations state, “the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth.” (D&C 1:30.)
I am SO glad that my church doesn't teach such nonsense!
 
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Bonnie

Super Member
Could you explain for us how that differs from LDS beliefs?

Bonnie, the truth is--if one believed the gospel message--then they would believe the Biblical witness:

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

That's the LDS theology--and it defies the "gospel" the critics attempt to pawn here.

Eternal life, or celestial glory or exaltation, is a conditional gift. Conditions of this gift have been established by the Lord, who said, “If you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God.” Those qualifying conditions include faith in the Lord, repentance, baptism, receiving the Holy Ghost, and remaining faithful to the ordinances and covenants of the temple.

No man in this Church can obtain the highest degree of celestial glory without a worthy woman who is sealed to him.14 This temple ordinance enables eventual exaltation for both of them.

Where is any of this found in the Bible OR the BoM, especially the bolded parts?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member

Where is any of this found in the Bible OR the BoM, especially the bolded parts?

You are aware the Jews were asking that very same question to the mortal apostles of the first century NT church? The apostles were teaching doctrines which were found nowhere in the OT scriptures.

Bonnie--that's the power(revelation from God) of having a church founded upon the living, mortal apostles and prophets--Jesus being the Chief Corner Stone:

Ephesians 2:20---King James Version
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

There is a difference between having a church founded upon men--and a church founded upon living, mortal apostles and prophets--Jesus Christ being the Chief Corner Stone:

SECTION 110

D&C 110
1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachitestifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
I cannot speak for other churches, but in MY church body, we do not teach that we are the ONLY true church on the planet ....
That might be because your church isn't the true church.

But the NT writers did claim it was God's one church--and there was only one church which fit that bill.

Bonnie--could you give us the scriptures which stated there were numerous denominations in the NT--all of which constituted the true church?

Where there was any church--except that one-- which was founded upon the living, mortal apostles and prophets?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
That might be because your church isn't the true church.

But the NT writers did claim it was God's one church--and there was only one church which fit that bill.

Bonnie--could you give us the scriptures which stated there were numerous denominations in the NT--all of which constituted the true church?

Where there was any church--except that one-- which was founded upon the living, mortal apostles and prophets?
Where did the NT writers say the Church of Latter Day Saints is the one true church on the planet? Where does the NT teach the following:

1. the necessity of building temples all over the world
2. doing the temple endowment and keeping the covenants made therein
3. Observing the WoW
4. Heavenly father and heavenly mother have spirit children that inhabit mortal bodies on earth
5. One must tithe in order to be worthy to get into Mormon temples, so one may be "exalted' to "godhood" after death, and become creators of worlds
6. Keeping up a temple recommend for the rest of one's life, so one may supposedly be worthy of getting into the temples to perform the ordinances they must do inside, in order to be exalted to godhood (supposedly) after death
7. Adam was first Michael the Archangel
8. Adam came from another world
9. God the Father was once a man on "an earth" who had to LEARN how to become a god, going from one degree to another, until he achieved godhood
10. Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate gods

Where are these taught within the pages of the Bible? OR even in the pages of the BoM?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
You are aware the Jews were asking that very same question to the mortal apostles of the first century NT church? The apostles were teaching doctrines which were found nowhere in the OT scriptures.

Bonnie--that's the power(revelation from God) of having a church founded upon the living, mortal apostles and prophets--Jesus being the Chief Corner Stone:

Ephesians 2:20---King James Version
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

There is a difference between having a church founded upon men--and a church founded upon living, mortal apostles and prophets--Jesus Christ being the Chief Corner Stone:

SECTION 110

D&C 110
1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachitestifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.
Why won't you answer my simple question? Where is the stuff on your church's website found in the Bible? Why are you displaying some of the Mormon debate tactics listed in my signature?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Where did the NT writers say the Church of Latter Day Saints is the one true church on the planet?
There was only one church denomination found in the Biblical NT--regardless of what name you believe it to be.

And that NT church was founded upon living, mortal apostles and prophets--Jesus Christ being the Chief Corner Stone. There is nothing in the Bible where numerous different denominations were considered the Lord's church. That's your claim--not the Biblical NT one. And neither does your church have the living, mortal apostles and prophets. The LDS do.

Yours is a man-made church without the first heavenly visitation to authorize the construction of a new denomination, with a different theology. That was the work of a man--not God, and neither do we have the first instance in the Biblical text where God acted in any such manner--absent of His heavenly visitations.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has those events:

D&C 110
1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi, testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

Bonnie--that's the power of God's church--to bring forth heavenly revelation. That's the history of God in action, with mankind. The rest sit in it's shadows.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Why won't you answer my simple question? Where is the stuff on your church's website found in the Bible? Why are you displaying some of the Mormon debate tactics listed in my signature?
Again--where are many of the doctrines the NT apostles taught--found in the Biblical OT?

Bonnie--your question is the same one the NT traditional Jews were asking the NT apostles. They accused the apostles of blasphemy, because of their strange doctrines. They were found nowhere in the existing scriptures.

That's the power of God's church--to bring forth revelation, revealing God's will. Founded upon the living, mortal apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ being the Chief Corner Stone.

So--how does that Biblical NT condition, IE--the opposition to new revelation--differ from your accusation against the LDS?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
There was only one church denomination found in the Biblical NT--regardless of what name you believe it to be.

And that NT church was founded upon living, mortal apostles and prophets--Jesus Christ being the Chief Corner Stone. There is nothing in the Bible where numerous different denominations were considered the Lord's church. That's your claim--not the Biblical NT one. And neither does your church have the living, mortal apostles and prophets. The LDS do.

Yours is a man-made church without the first heavenly visitation to authorize the construction of a new denomination, with a different theology. That was the work of a man--not God, and neither do we have the first instance in the Biblical text where God acted in any such manner--absent of His heavenly visitations.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has those events:

D&C 110
1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi, testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

Bonnie--that's the power of God's church--to bring forth heavenly revelation. That's the history of God in action, with mankind. The rest sit in it's shadows.
Why didn't you answer my question about where those beliefs I listed are found in the Bible, in the NT church? Are they that difficult?
 
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