LDS doctrine of “intelligences”

Markk

Active member
brotherofJared said:
Are we talking about what Brigham Young taught or what Milton taught?
BoJ,

We are talking about the Adam God theory, and whether or not it compliments, or contradicts accepted LDS theology. At least I am.

What Milton, through basically correlation with GA, taught in a LDS teaching manual and missionary source manual is very relative to this conversation. BY even teaches on this directly and indirectly, as do other GA.

You obviously do not want to discuss this teaching, a LDS teaching. The below is from LDS . Org https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/intelligence-intelligences?lang=eng

Intelligence, Intelligences​

  • See also Light, Light of Christ; Spirit; Truth
Intelligence has several meanings, three of which are: (1) It is the light of truth that gives life and light to all things in the universe. It has always existed. (2) The word intelligences may also refer to spirit children of God. (3) The scriptures also may speak of intelligence as referring to the spirit element that existed before we were begotten as spirit children.
  • Intelligence cleaveth unto intelligence, D&C 88:40.
  • Intelligence was not created or made, D&C 93:29.
  • All intelligence is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, D&C 93:30.
  • The glory of God is intelligence, D&C 93:36–37.
  • Intelligence acquired in this life rises with us in the resurrection, D&C 130:18–19.
  • The Lord rules over all the intelligences, Abr. 3:21.
  • The Lord showed Abraham the intelligences that were organized before the world was, Abr. 3:22.

This is also called the Light of Christ, and the “ego” of man.

The Melchizedek Priesthood Teaching Manual, Gospel Through the Ages teaches it this way in regards to the Plan of Salvation and the law of progression.

ETERNALLY EXISTENT INTELLIGENCES
Revelations were given by the Lord to the Prophet Joseph relative to several phases of the eternal progression of man. In the first stage, man was an eternally existent being termed an intelligence. In that sphere of existence each individual was naturally conscious. "He must have the power to distinguish himself from other things—the 'me' from the 'not me'. He must have power of deliberation, by which he sets over one thing against another; with power also to form a judgment that this or that is a better thing or state than this or that." 11 In short, he must have the power of choosing one thing instead of another and acting upon that choice. In that realm, as in all other states of immortal existence, natural law, good and evil, love and hate, truth and error, and free agency exist. They are all eternal and closely connected with immortal man as he ascends the ladder of progression. 12 We do not know how long we lived in this first realm, but it must have been ages and ages. There came a time, however, when we completed our work in that realm and were permitted to go forward in the eternal process of progression.
THE SPIRIT WORLD
The next realm where man dwelt was the spirit world. According to Mormon concept eternally-existing intelligences were clothed with spirit bodies in the mansion of their Eternal Father. As was definitely pointed out in an earlier chapter, numerous sons and daughters were begotten and born of heavenly parents into that eternal family in the spirit world. In the likeness of God Himself, these spirit children were organized, possessing divine, eternal, and godlike attributes, inherited from their Heavenly Father and Mother. There in the spirit world they were reared to maturity, becoming grown spirit men and women prior to coming upon this earth. 13 Four thousand years ago, Father Abraham knew that God's children lived in the pre-mortal world and that they were eternal. He was shown in vision the spirit world and the intelligences which had been organized into spirit beings before this world was created. The Lord told Abraham that He had selected the most progressive, righteous, and highly developed spirits to become the rulers in mortality. Then God told the ancient prophet, "Abraham, thou art one of them; thou was chosen before thou wast born." 14 The Lord also said unto Abraham: If there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning, they exist before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal. 15
THE MORTAL PROBATION Following his stay in the spirit world, man comes on earth in a probationary state preparatory to the eternal existence beyond the mortal confines of this world. Here he receives a physical body and undergoes the experiences of mortality. It is true that when we are born into mortality a veil is drawn over our minds, so that we have forgotten our pre-mortal life; yet we come here with the amount of potential development that we had attained in the spirit world. Since mortality is a continuation of a previous existence, children learn very rapidly during the early years of their mortal lives. This is largely an unfoldment of their pre-mortal development. At times it seems to each of us that we have a dim recollection of some bygone age or world, some previous experiences which we may have had. The poet Wordsworth beautifully expressed the foregoing divine doctrine when he wrote the following: Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting;
The soul that rises with us, our life's star,
Hath had elsewhere its setting,
And cometh from afar;
Not in entire forgetfulness,
And not in utter nakedness,
But trailing clouds of glory do we come
From God who is our home.
—Ode on the Intimations of Immortality.

POST-MORTAL LIFE Eventually, however, mortal death comes upon all. The eternal spirit goes to the spirit world to await resurrection and judgment. In due time, all will rise from the grave and stand before the judgment seat of Jesus Christ. There they shall be assigned to the glory that they have merited according to the lives that they have lived while in mortality and the changes that they have wrought upon their characters while in paradise. Some will receive telestial glory; others, terrestrial, while those who are recorded in "the Lamb's book of life" will enter celestial glory. There some of them will become angels and others priests and kings, or, in other words, Gods. 16 Regardless of the degree of glory to which one attains, human personality will persist. In the words of Jacob, the Nephite prophet, following resurrection "all men become incorruptible and immortal, and they are living souls." 17 Abinadi added the following thought: "Even this mortal shall put on immortality, and this corruption shall put on incorruption. . . . If they [personal beings] be good, to the resurrection of endless life and happiness; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of endless death." 18
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
brotherofJared said:
Just to be clear, you are stating what you believe the church is teaching. It teaches no such doctrine. Sex is eternal. It is the way babies are made. It's not the way spirits are made. Spirits cannot be made.

This is all pretty much what we teach. Your assertions are clearly your own ideas.
Maybe you’re confusing the term “intelligence” with “spirit.” Growing up in mormonism, I was always taught that it’s intelligence that is eternal matter. Meaning it has always existed. And God the Father and His wives created/gave birth to spirit bodies to give form to the intelligence. Then He created earths where His spirit children could come and get physical bodies. When those physical bodies die, the spirit bodies return to God and are eventually put into resurrected eternal bodies.
 

The Prophet

Active member
Obviously, The Book of Mormon or the Bible does not teach eternal intelligence both books make it clear only God existed eternally :)

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man,
and sits enthroned in yonder

heavens. That is the great secret... …I am going to tell you how God came to be

God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will

refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. … It is the

first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and

to know...that he was once a man like us.... Here, then, is eternal life - to

know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods

yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done

before you... (“King Follett Discourse,” Journal of Discourses 6:3-4, also in

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 345-346, and History of the Church, vol.

6, 305-307,)"
 

Markk

Active member
Spencer W Kimball wrote…in regards to intelligences….


God desires man's success. The gospel of Jesus Christ is the eternal plan of salvation. It is the plan devised and announced by God, the Eternal Father, for the salvation of all who will believe and obey. (78-29) God has taken these intelligences and given to them spirit bodies and given them instructions and training. Then he proceeded to create a world for them and sent them as spirits to obtain a mortal body, for which he made preparation. And when they were upon the earth, he gave them instructions on how to go about developing and conducting their lives to make them perfect, so they could return to their Father in heaven after their transitions. (77-25) The Lord has never asked us to do anything which would not redound to our good. He is not selfish and [for] his offspring has no selfish plans. His great work is to see that man becomes like him, in knowledge, service, accomplishment, and righteousness. (71-13) It is the destiny of the spirits of men to come to this earth and travel a journey of indeterminate length. They travel sometimes dangerously, sometimes safely, sometimes sadly, sometimes happily. Always the road is marked by divine purpose. (MF 1)


What is clear in this teaching is that SWK taught that there were unorganized spirits that had to be organized into spirit bodies by HF, and then those spirits into mortal bodies.
 

Markk

Active member
Maybe you’re confusing the term “intelligence” with “spirit.” Growing up in mormonism, I was always taught that it’s intelligence that is eternal matter. Meaning it has always existed. And God the Father and His wives created/gave birth to spirit bodies to give form to the intelligence. Then He created earths where His spirit children could come and get physical bodies. When those physical bodies die, the spirit bodies return to God and are eventually put into resurrected eternal bodies.
He certainly is conflating the two. It is why he does not want to inject this LDS teaching into his theory. His theory is dependent that spirit children of HF and HM did not have to be organized, begotten, born…etc to them, but that they always existed in the same form.

He stated something awhile back, along the lines of these spirts just came to HF and HM and said they wanted help to become mortal. I would have to go back and find it for a more accurate quote, but his theory has a huge in hole in it.

The reality is that many LDS teaches don‘t like the Intelligence doctrine, but without this teaching, the Law of Eternal Progression and the plan of salvation does not work.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
He certainly is conflating the two. It is why he does not want to inject this LDS teaching into his theory. His theory is dependent that spirit children of HF and HM did not have to be organized, begotten, born…etc to them, but that they always existed in the same form.

He stated something awhile back, along the lines of these spirts just came to HF and HM and said they wanted help to become mortal. I would have to go back and find it for a more accurate quote, but his theory has a huge in hole in it.

The reality is that many LDS teaches don‘t like the Intelligence doctrine, but without this teaching, the Law of Eternal Progression and the plan of salvation does not work.
There are so many holes in mormon teachings. It’s not surprising that modern Mormons either deny it was taught or make up their own opinions. It was all just the opinions of men to begin with.
 

Markk

Active member
There are so many holes in mormon teachings. It’s not surprising that modern Mormons either deny it was taught or make up their own opinions. It was all just the opinions of men to begin with.
JS said it was “line upon line,” but it is actually “lie upon lie.”

I have said it here many times, but one of the saddest things about all this, is that the GA just leave folks like BoJ hanging, trying to figure this stuff out for themselves. I get it in that they are in the same boat, they don’t know either, but at least they should make an attempt to clean it up.

Instead of cleaning it up, they talk to them like they are little kids twice a year at conference. Say what you will about BY, false prophet/false doctrine and all, but at least he was the boss and taught the meat boldly. The GA today are spineless in that regard.

When I typed in “intelligences” on LDS.org…this is all I got… (3) The scriptures also may speak of intelligence as referring to the spirit element that existed before we were begotten as spirit children. They are prophets and apostles, how about expounding on it a bit?
 

Markk

Active member
The LDS Apostle BH Roberts taught…

I call attention to this distinction that when in our literature we say "God created the spirits of men," it is understood that they were "begotten," We mean "generation," not "creation." Intelligences, which are eternal, uncreated, self-existing beings, are begotten spirits, and these afterwards begotten men. When intelligences are "begotten" spirits they are of the nature of him who begets them—sons of God, and con-substantial with their Father.] I. The Mormon Doctrine of Deity…B.H. Roberts.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
JS said it was “line upon line,” but it is actually “lie upon lie.”

I have said it here many times, but one of the saddest things about all this, is that the GA just leave folks like BoJ hanging, trying to figure this stuff out for themselves. I get it in that they are in the same boat, they don’t know either, but at least they should make an attempt to clean it up.

Instead of cleaning it up, they talk to them like they are little kids twice a year at conference. Say what you will about BY, false prophet/false doctrine and all, but at least he was the boss and taught the meat boldly. The GA today are spineless in that regard.

When I typed in “intelligences” on LDS.org…this is all I got… (3) The scriptures also may speak of intelligence as referring to the spirit element that existed before we were begotten as spirit children. They are prophets and apostles, how about expounding on it a bit?

If they were real prophets and apostles, they could. But they’re not.
 

Markk

Active member
Joseph Fielding Smith

Some of our writers have endeavored to explain what an intelligence is, but to do so is futile, for we have never been given any insight into this matter beyond what the Lord has fragmentarily revealed. We know, however, that there is something called intelligence which always existed. It is the real eternal part of man, which was not created nor made. This intelligence combined with the spirit constitutes a spiritual identity or individual. (Answers to Gospel Questions, 4:127)

If the Lord declares that intelligence, something which we do not fully understand, was co-eternal with him and always existed, there is no argument that we can or should present to contradict it. Why he cannot create intelligence is simply because intelligence, like time and space, always existed, and therefore did not have to be created. However, intelligences spoken of in the Book of Abraham were created, for these are spirit children of God, begotten sons. (Answers to Gospel Questions, 3:125
 

Markk

Active member
Intelligence or light and truth, is also used as a synonym for spirit element. Scriptures using both terms speak of the self-existent nature of the substance involved. (D. & C. 93:29; 131:7-8.) Abraham calls the pre-existent spirits the intelligences that were organized before the world was" (Abra. 3:22) because the intelligences were organized intelligence or in other words the spirit bodies were born from spirit element. (Mormon Doctrine, 2d ed., p.387)


Abraham used the name intelligences to apply to the spirit children of the Eternal Father. The intelligence or spirit element became intelligences after the spirits were born as individual entities. (Abra. 3:22-74.) Use of this name designates both the primal element from which the spirit offspring were created and also their inherited capacity to grow in grace, knowledge power and intelligence itself, until such intelligences, gaining the fulness of all things, become like their Father, the Supreme Intelligence. (Mormon Doctrine, 2d ed., p.387)
 

Markk

Active member
Brigham Young

The life that is within us is a part of an eternity of life, and is organized spirit, which is clothed upon by tabernacles, thereby constituting our present being, which is designed for the attainment of further intelligence. The matter composing our bodies and spirits has been organized from the eternity of matter that fills immensity. (Discourses of Brigham Young, p.49)


Harold B. Lee

A spirit, Abraham says, is an organized intelligence. This is the first beginning we have in our understanding of what a spirit is. It is an organized intelligence that lived as a spirit before this world was. (The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, p.28)

There is something that is not created or made. The scriptures called it "intelligence," which at a certain stage in the pre-existence was organized into a "spirit." (The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, p.74)
 

Markk

Active member
Bruce R. McConkie

"There is no such thing as immaterial matter," the Prophet tells us. "All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes; We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter." (D. & C. 131:7-8.) This spirit element has always existed; it is co-eternal with God. (Teachings, pp. 352-354.) It is also called intelligence or the light of truth, which "was not created or made, neither indeed can be." (D. & C. 93:29.)


Speaking of pre-existent spirits, Abraham calls them "the intelligences that were organized before the world was." (Abra. 3:22-24.) Thus, portions of the self-existent spirit element are born as spirit children, or in other words the intelligence which cannot be created or made, because it is self-existent, is organized into intelligences. ("Spirit Element," in Mormon Doctrine, p. 751)
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
Bump for Aaron
This gets really, really deep. We are so into the deep end, that I'm not sure it's going to be of any use to explain it to you. Like, everything to be spoken on the subject is speculatory. Just like the Adam God Theory, any rational explanation, someone could say "Do you have any GA to back up your assertion?" I'd have to say "Nope."
So really, this would belong on the Aaron32ism board, if there was one.
It takes a willingness to understand, and you already think Mormonism is a bunch of crock, so curious to know why you want my input?
By the way, you did know I also subscribe to principles of Buddhism right?
I'll lay out some Pre-requisites, and then you tell me if it's with your (or my) time to try an explain it to you. Ok?
First, I believe that whatever glory we obtain after this life will not be our eternal forever destiny. The whole purpose of degrees of glory is to set up the order of who ministers to who. If I die, and go to the terrestrial kingdom, I'll be ministered to by the celestial kingdom in the next life, and minister to the telestial kingdom. And then if I cant live a terrestrial law, I'll go back down to telestial glory. I believe a person can spiritually transcend degrees of glory in this lifetime, we physically obtain that kingdom in our next life depending on our faithfulness. We could bounce between glories forever. Even celestial angels (like Satan) can descend to outer darkness.

Second, I also believe in a multiverse and multiple realities.There's absolutely no Mormon doctrine to support this. If I hadn't experienced myself there's no way I'm sure If I'd believe it. But I do know that I'm not the only one who's experienced it. Do you remember me telling you that during my spiritual ascension that my wife thought I was crazy? There's a good reason for it. Even as I write, I'm noticing typos in things I recall that I clearly typed out that I have to go back and correct (a sign of shifting reality) - I don't think this is something God wants me to share, because when I do the "track jumping" gets worse. (Watch Star Trek TNG season 7 episode 11 to get an idea of what I'm talking about.) It's maddening.

So, with these types of ideas in mind, are you sure you want my take on the organized Intelligence into spirit bodies? I mean, we're already off the reservation that you call "Mormonism", so I'm wondering what we intend to accomplish with such a discussion. I can tell you that whatever conclusion you want me to draw is not going to happen. You're very much a "thinking inside the box" type and I am not.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
This gets really, really deep. We are so into the deep end, that I'm not sure it's going to be of any use to explain it to you. Like, everything to be spoken on the subject is speculatory. Just like the Adam God Theory, any rational explanation, someone could say "Do you have any GA to back up your assertion?" I'd have to say "Nope."
So really, this would belong on the Aaron32ism board, if there was one.
It takes a willingness to understand, and you already think Mormonism is a bunch of crock, so curious to know why you want my input?
By the way, you did know I also subscribe to principles of Buddhism right?
I'll lay out some Pre-requisites, and then you tell me if it's with your (or my) time to try an explain it to you. Ok?
First, I believe that whatever glory we obtain after this life will not be our eternal forever destiny. The whole purpose of degrees of glory is to set up the order of who ministers to who. If I die, and go to the terrestrial kingdom, I'll be ministered to by the celestial kingdom in the next life, and minister to the telestial kingdom. And then if I cant live a terrestrial law, I'll go back down to telestial glory. I believe a person can spiritually transcend degrees of glory in this lifetime, we physically obtain that kingdom in our next life depending on our faithfulness. We could bounce between glories forever. Even celestial angels (like Satan) can descend to outer darkness.

Second, I also believe in a multiverse and multiple realities.There's absolutely no Mormon doctrine to support this. If I hadn't experienced myself there's no way I'm sure If I'd believe it. But I do know that I'm not the only one who's experienced it. Do you remember me telling you that during my spiritual ascension that my wife thought I was crazy? There's a good reason for it. Even as I write, I'm noticing typos in things I recall that I clearly typed out that I have to go back and correct (a sign of shifting reality) - I don't think this is something God wants me to share, because when I do the "track jumping" gets worse. (Watch Star Trek TNG season 7 episode 11 to get an idea of what I'm talking about.) It's maddening.

So, with these types of ideas in mind, are you sure you want my take on the organized Intelligence into spirit bodies? I mean, we're already off the reservation that you call "Mormonism", so I'm wondering what we intend to accomplish with such a discussion. I can tell you that whatever conclusion you want me to draw is not going to happen. You're very much a "thinking inside the box" type and I am not.

I don’t believe that’s true about Markk. If he were a “thinking inside the box” type, he wouldn’t have left mormonism.

One thought I want to leave with you... our God is not a God of chaos. No shifting doctrines or realities, no bouncing around between glories forever. No crazy-making thinking. His voice is clear and His instructions are simple. He can heal internal chaos, and He told us how...

”Be still, and know that I am God.”

Quiet all the voices. Shut them off. Be still. Wait. And you’ll learn who He is.

That’s how you find truth, relief, peace and Grace.

God bless you.
 
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Aaron32

Well-known member
I don’t believe that’s true about Markk. If he were a “thinking inside the box” type, he wouldn’t have left mormonism.
And yet, he's unwilling to view Mormonism any other way than what he's been taught.
One thought I want to leave with you... our God is not a God of chaos. No shifting doctrines or realities, no bouncing around between glories forever. No crazy-making thinking. His voice is clear and His instructions are simple. He can heal internal chaos, and He told us how...

”Be still, and know that I am God.”

Quiet all the voices. Shut them off. Be still. Wait. And you’ll learn who He is.

That’s how you find truth, relief, peace and Grace.

God bless you.
I appreciate the blessing, but who said I wasn't at peace, or that I needed relief? I'm perfectly at peace.

Does that mean life is peaceful? No. Especially when trying to find unity with others that think differently than you. Though we find peace that surpasses understanding, Christ did not come to send peace but a sword. The knowledge he send to some but not others sets us at variance with each other.
 

Markk

Active member
This gets really, really deep. We are so into the deep end, that I'm not sure it's going to be of any use to explain it to you. Like, everything to be spoken on the subject is speculatory. Just like the Adam God Theory, any rational explanation, someone could say "Do you have any GA to back up your assertion?" I'd have to say "Nope."
So really, this would belong on the Aaron32ism board, if there was one.
It takes a willingness to understand, and you already think Mormonism is a bunch of crock, so curious to know why you want my input?
By the way, you did know I also subscribe to principles of Buddhism right?
I'll lay out some Pre-requisites, and then you tell me if it's with your (or my) time to try an explain it to you. Ok?
First, I believe that whatever glory we obtain after this life will not be our eternal forever destiny. The whole purpose of degrees of glory is to set up the order of who ministers to who. If I die, and go to the terrestrial kingdom, I'll be ministered to by the celestial kingdom in the next life, and minister to the telestial kingdom. And then if I cant live a terrestrial law, I'll go back down to telestial glory. I believe a person can spiritually transcend degrees of glory in this lifetime, we physically obtain that kingdom in our next life depending on our faithfulness. We could bounce between glories forever. Even celestial angels (like Satan) can descend to outer darkness.

Second, I also believe in a multiverse and multiple realities.There's absolutely no Mormon doctrine to support this. If I hadn't experienced myself there's no way I'm sure If I'd believe it. But I do know that I'm not the only one who's experienced it. Do you remember me telling you that during my spiritual ascension that my wife thought I was crazy? There's a good reason for it. Even as I write, I'm noticing typos in things I recall that I clearly typed out that I have to go back and correct (a sign of shifting reality) - I don't think this is something God wants me to share, because when I do the "track jumping" gets worse. (Watch Star Trek TNG season 7 episode 11 to get an idea of what I'm talking about.) It's maddening.

So, with these types of ideas in mind, are you sure you want my take on the organized Intelligence into spirit bodies? I mean, we're already off the reservation that you call "Mormonism", so I'm wondering what we intend to accomplish with such a discussion. I can tell you that whatever conclusion you want me to draw is not going to happen. You're very much a "thinking inside the box" type and I am not.
Hi Aaron,

I enjoy reading and studying history, not only Mormonism but other history’s, like WW2. So whether we discuss it personally your not, I’ll continue to study on my own or with anyone that will listen and want to discuss it. I love the discussion, You can discuss away and we can compare what the church presents and teaches, to how you make this doctrine work for you. My goal here, as always is to help folks, either LDS or not, see what the church teaches…after that they can make their own choice, I am nobody's HS.

It really isn’t as deep as you might think it is. If you are a “student” of Mormon history and LDS doctrine, it is really THE key piece to the puzzle in understanding the continuation of seeds and progression as taught by JS and other early GA. Using a Disney Lion King theme as a example, it completes the “circle of life” story, in that it is basically what “The Law of Eternal Progression “ is, as taught in LDS thought as “the continuation of seeds.”

As and example of this being a key part of the puzzle, and you may not even realize it, but the D&C (93:36) verse you cite in your signature is in regards to this first stage of progression. If you choose to delve into this topic, read the chapter and title heading in full context and you will see this is true, verse 29 is key. Cross reference Abraham 3 with it, then start reading some of the quotes I have given you in the thread. The “intelligence of God,” as taught in LDS theology, and the standard words, is the eternal matter that has always existed along with man. This matter, not being a “it” but a “he”…is then organized into a spirit body in the next estate, by a HF and a HM, born and begotten, and reared to maturity in many mansions, until it is time these spirits receive a mortal tabernacle and are born to earthly parents…and so on and on.

You may not buy into this, I hope you don’t, but my goal is to present what the church teaches the most accurately I can here…in that it is a LDS forum, and I enjoy discussing it, and yes it is a crock too me, but it does not mean I do not enjoy the study, I find it a fascinating bunch of crock. And I find it equally interesting that todays average Mormon does not have a clue of what the church teaches. Bit, don’t fool yourself that doctrines like this are no longer taught, because they are, they are just watered down by the GA who talk to the folks like they are in primary, especially in GC.

I am familiar with the TNG episode, I am a TNG junkie, LOL…being a Ex-Borg Morg. But I will watch it again tonight and comment more.

Mag’s has great advice in quieting the voices and focus on what is good, which is God. I know when life builds up around me I do better when I listen.

Thanks for your honesty

Mark
 

Markk

Active member
And yet, he's unwilling to view Mormonism any other way than what he's been taught.
That’s just not true…not even remotely true. If you believe I was taught half the stuff I know now about the church you are mistaken. Especially in full context. I have spent the past 30 years reading through GA books and teaching manuals, and periodicals to get to the bottom of what i was generally taught. Your statement is just not true Aaron.

Don’t confuse my disagreeing what is, and what is not, Mormonism with not agreeing what you believe it to be. I am claiming and I believe showing you that there is a systematic approach to Mormonism, and it is a simple general story…with uncountable complex rabbit trails, but the plan of salvation outline is simple, and easy to follow if you want to understand it.

I get you want folks to approve what you believe, but that is unrealistic. It does not mean they don’t understand your takes on it, or respect the right you have to share it, it means they disagree with it. It is no different that you disagreeing with the triune nature of God (Trinity)…you state over and over you don’t buy it, and that s okay, I don’t need you to buy it, for it to be a firm foundation in my faith. And like wise you should not expect Christians to agree with your ”faith”…it is just not practical, unless you are humanist of sorts, which a Christian is not.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
And yet, he's unwilling to view Mormonism any other way than what he's been taught.
What he was taught, and what he has studied about it, is mormonism. That’s the way it was taught by Mormon leaders down the line. He has shown you that over and over. Just because you don’t want to believe mormonism the way it was presented by your prophets doesn’t mean that isn’t what it was based on. You’re the one who is trying to change it.

I appreciate the blessing, but who said I wasn't at peace, or that I needed relief? I'm perfectly at peace.
Your own words show it. You’re flitting here and there to different doctrines and philosophies, trying to make things fit in your head. Trying to make mormonism work in different ways. Blaming your typos on the universe shifting your words.

Does that mean life is peaceful? No. Especially when trying to find unity with others that think differently than you. Though we find peace that surpasses understanding, Christ did not come to send peace but a sword. The knowledge he send to some but not others sets us at variance with each other.
No. He brings peace in the middle of the storm. He said “Come unto me and I will give you peace.”
 
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