LDS doctrine of “intelligences”

Markk

Active member
Yeah, it's churches teaching. I won't deny that. But that doesn't mean they teach soup to nuts on the subject.
Certainly, you can appreciate the simplicity in basic concepts taught to children, that comes as a guideline as the understanding matures.
The problem is when we make postulations on simple truths and then declare them doctrine. Even the temple teaches not to accept "philosophies of men mingled with scripture."
Not quite sure what you mean here. I appreciate the truth…and whether I believe Mormonism is or not the truth, is not the point, the point is whether or not the church is clear on what the have taught and what they teach…and I say they used to be, but today, unless one really wants to understand basic LDS thought, they had better go to anti sites like this one to get the truth, and that is what is sad from a members point of view. It is similar to BYU professors having to go to the Tanners to get sources for Mormon History, after the church shut down the History department because people were getting the truth.


Maybe the problem isn’t really with ex-members like Mag’s and I, maybe it is with those that claim to know the truth, and claim to be your leaders, yet hide or water down the truth that should be challenged. All I have done is quote LDS teachings and teachers Aaron, yet I am the one that is looked down on.

Please ponder on this, and not for me.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
What this shows is a unwillingness to accept what the church has taught and what they currently teach Aaron.
Define "currently". 1946?
Why are manuals clearly passed over in favor of ancient priesthood manuals?
 

Markk

Active member
Define "currently". 1946?
Why are manuals clearly passed over in favor of ancient priesthood manuals?
Why are you even debating this as a teaching? It is a consistent teaching throughout Mormon history…the very same teaching is taught today in a 2012 teaching manual. See the new thread I stared where I addressed the very issue.

Also, I hardly consider a manual used that was published ten years before I was born hardly ancient. Also it had printings later by Deseret Books after I was born. And Aaron, you can still purchase this manual at Deseret Books in a E book for 10 dollars.

Aaron, the LDS church isn’t even 200 years old, which is again, hardly ancient.

But read what the church currently teaches (Gospel Principles chapter 2), in a current teaching manual, that compliments the 1946 teaching manual.

“We Are Children of Our Heavenly Father
•What do scriptures and latter-day prophets teach us about our relationship to God?

God is not only our Ruler and Creator; He is also our Heavenly Father . All men and women are literally the sons and daughters of God . “Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith [1998], 335) .”


This is a perfect example of your unwillingness to accept church teachings, and more or less blame others for bringing it up.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
Aaron, we believe differently, that is okay. Because we do believe differently, are you saying we can discuss our differences?
Sure.
I am being very fair and showing you what the church teaches, and what I was taught as a Mormon.
Agreed.
Is it wrong of me for trying to pin down LDS theology, as taught by the church? Do investigators deserves a honest assessment of LDS teachings, as taught by the church?
I think the key word being used is "honest".

Before we engage in any meaningful discussion, we have to understand the purpose of understanding doctrine in the first place.
The purpose for learning doctrine is help us understand the purpose of obedience, and tells us how to live eternal truths that lead us to exaltation. If learners will “feast upon the words of Christ,” the doctrine they find there will “tell [them] all things what [they] should do” (2 Nephi 32:3).

“ The Gospel is not only founded on unvarying certainties, but since it embraces all truth it must of necessity include the knowledge of all sciences. It possesses the key to the true philosophy of life. Although we do not understand the entire plan of life and purposes of God in our universe, yet the Gospel of Jesus Christ lays the foundation for men to learn little by little the great universal plan of human life.
Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, and all the other presidents and leaders of the Church have maintained that there are no limits nor bounds to the truths embraced within the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For the purpose of showing the viewpoint of latter-day prophets, we present two quotations from their teachings which are typical of many others. President Brigham Young emphatically declared:
Our religion is simply the truth. It is all said in this one expression—it embraces all truth, wherever found, in all the works of God and man that are visible or invisible to mortal eyes. . . . Mormonism embraces all truth that is revealed and that is unrevealed, whether religious, political, scientific, or philosophical. . . .
[It] embraces every principle pertaining to life and salvation, for time and eternity, no matter who has it. If the infidel has got truth, it belongs to Mormonism. The truth and sound doctrine possessed by the sectarian world, and they have a great deal, all belongs to this Church. As for their morality, many of them are morally just as good as we are. All that is good, lovely, and praiseworthy belongs to this Church and Kingdom. Mormonism includes all truth. There is no truth but what belongs to the Gospel. It is life, eternal life; it is bliss; it is the fullness of all things in the Gods and in the eternities of the Gods.

“Gospel through the Ages” by Milton R. Hunter

This means that if the reasoning begins to contradict principles in the scriptures, then we need check our reasoning before we accept it. Scripture always trump what it's a manual. Can we agree on that?

I am not sure what you expect from folks here in regards to your theories? Should I just say your theories are LDS doctrines, and I should just ignore what I was taught and what the GA teach?

Since this is the Mormonism board, My personal theories would be more appropriate in a PM, and anyone interested can join. But I'll be happy to bring up foundational sources as we come across them.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
Since this is the Mormonism board, My personal theories would be more appropriate in a PM, and anyone interested can join. But I'll be happy to bring up foundational sources as we come across them.
We’ve been “coming across them” all along. Markk has been very diligent in presenting foundational sources of mormon doctrine. But you just deny them and present your own theories as if they are what mormonism is about now.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
We’ve been “coming across them” all along. Markk has been very diligent in presenting foundational sources of mormon doctrine. But you just deny them and present your own theories as if they are what mormonism is about now.
Yep. You're right. Markk is to0. I haven't been able to put my finger on it until this morning. I've been able to side-step it until now. Kudos to Markk for helping me see it. It's so much easier to deflect and avoid the work, than to simply embrace it. I can identify the singular issue that makes the rest of the currently cultural narrative of the restored gospel dominos fall. I love this! This is why I come here! :)
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
Yep. You're right. Markk is to0. I haven't been able to put my finger on it until this morning. I've been able to side-step it until now. Kudos to Markk for helping me see it. It's so much easier to deflect and avoid the work, than to simply embrace it. I can identify the singular issue that makes the rest of the currently cultural narrative of the restored gospel dominos fall. I love this! This is why I come here! :)
Right. And pigs fly.
 

Yitoz

New Member
BoJ,

We are talking about the Adam God theory, and whether or not it compliments, or contradicts accepted LDS theology. At least I am.

What Milton, through basically correlation with GA, taught in a LDS teaching manual and missionary source manual is very relative to this conversation. BY even teaches on this directly and indirectly, as do other GA.

You obviously do not want to discuss this teaching, a LDS teaching. The below is from LDS . Org https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/intelligence-intelligences?lang=eng

Intelligence, Intelligences​

  • See also Light, Light of Christ; Spirit; Truth
Intelligence has several meanings, three of which are: (1) It is the light of truth that gives life and light to all things in the universe. It has always existed. (2) The word intelligences may also refer to spirit children of God. (3) The scriptures also may speak of intelligence as referring to the spirit element that existed before we were begotten as spirit children.
  • Intelligence cleaveth unto intelligence, D&C 88:40.
  • Intelligence was not created or made, D&C 93:29.
  • All intelligence is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, D&C 93:30.
  • The glory of God is intelligence, D&C 93:36–37.
  • Intelligence acquired in this life rises with us in the resurrection, D&C 130:18–19.
  • The Lord rules over all the intelligences, Abr. 3:21.
  • The Lord showed Abraham the intelligences that were organized before the world was, Abr. 3:22.

This is also called the Light of Christ, and the “ego” of man.

The Melchizedek Priesthood Teaching Manual, Gospel Through the Ages teaches it this way in regards to the Plan of Salvation and the law of progression.

ETERNALLY EXISTENT INTELLIGENCES
Revelations were given by the Lord to the Prophet Joseph relative to several phases of the eternal progression of man. In the first stage, man was an eternally existent being termed an intelligence. In that sphere of existence each individual was naturally conscious. "He must have the power to distinguish himself from other things—the 'me' from the 'not me'. He must have power of deliberation, by which he sets over one thing against another; with power also to form a judgment that this or that is a better thing or state than this or that." 11 In short, he must have the power of choosing one thing instead of another and acting upon that choice. In that realm, as in all other states of immortal existence, natural law, good and evil, love and hate, truth and error, and free agency exist. They are all eternal and closely connected with immortal man as he ascends the ladder of progression. 12 We do not know how long we lived in this first realm, but it must have been ages and ages. There came a time, however, when we completed our work in that realm and were permitted to go forward in the eternal process of progression.
THE SPIRIT WORLD
The next realm where man dwelt was the spirit world. According to Mormon concept eternally-existing intelligences were clothed with spirit bodies in the mansion of their Eternal Father. As was definitely pointed out in an earlier chapter, numerous sons and daughters were begotten and born of heavenly parents into that eternal family in the spirit world. In the likeness of God Himself, these spirit children were organized, possessing divine, eternal, and godlike attributes, inherited from their Heavenly Father and Mother. There in the spirit world they were reared to maturity, becoming grown spirit men and women prior to coming upon this earth. 13 Four thousand years ago, Father Abraham knew that God's children lived in the pre-mortal world and that they were eternal. He was shown in vision the spirit world and the intelligences which had been organized into spirit beings before this world was created. The Lord told Abraham that He had selected the most progressive, righteous, and highly developed spirits to become the rulers in mortality. Then God told the ancient prophet, "Abraham, thou art one of them; thou was chosen before thou wast born." 14 The Lord also said unto Abraham: If there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning, they exist before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal. 15
THE MORTAL PROBATION Following his stay in the spirit world, man comes on earth in a probationary state preparatory to the eternal existence beyond the mortal confines of this world. Here he receives a physical body and undergoes the experiences of mortality. It is true that when we are born into mortality a veil is drawn over our minds, so that we have forgotten our pre-mortal life; yet we come here with the amount of potential development that we had attained in the spirit world. Since mortality is a continuation of a previous existence, children learn very rapidly during the early years of their mortal lives. This is largely an unfoldment of their pre-mortal development. At times it seems to each of us that we have a dim recollection of some bygone age or world, some previous experiences which we may have had. The poet Wordsworth beautifully expressed the foregoing divine doctrine when he wrote the following: Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting;
The soul that rises with us, our life's star,
Hath had elsewhere its setting,
And cometh from afar;
Not in entire forgetfulness,
And not in utter nakedness,
But trailing clouds of glory do we come
From God who is our home.
—Ode on the Intimations of Immortality.

POST-MORTAL LIFE Eventually, however, mortal death comes upon all. The eternal spirit goes to the spirit world to await resurrection and judgment. In due time, all will rise from the grave and stand before the judgment seat of Jesus Christ. There they shall be assigned to the glory that they have merited according to the lives that they have lived while in mortality and the changes that they have wrought upon their characters while in paradise. Some will receive telestial glory; others, terrestrial, while those who are recorded in "the Lamb's book of life" will enter celestial glory. There some of them will become angels and others priests and kings, or, in other words, Gods. 16 Regardless of the degree of glory to which one attains, human personality will persist. In the words of Jacob, the Nephite prophet, following resurrection "all men become incorruptible and immortal, and they are living souls." 17 Abinadi added the following thought: "Even this mortal shall put on immortality, and this corruption shall put on incorruption. . . . If they [personal beings] be good, to the resurrection of endless life and happiness; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of endless death." 18
This reveals a continuing flaw in Mormon cosmology. Einstein stated that his greatest error or regret was his earlier theory of a steady state universe (eternal universe), and he even contrived a formula to prove it. Numerous scientists adhered to a form of steady state theory, and the term Big Bang was a pejorative attached to the theory by noted astronomer Sir Fred Hoyle. The current areas of cosmology and scientific study have accepted that an major event happened approximately 14 billion years ago that is known as the Big Bang, and that all the matter and anti-matter that exists in the universe can be traced back to that event. This then would call into question any theory of any form of matter (or spirit/soul/intelligence) that could have been eternally existent in this finite universe.
 
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