LDS Must Earn Physical Bodies, Resurrection, and Eternal Life

[Magdalena]

Then your argument is illogical. One person does no good work in choosing Christ, because if they did that would be "earning salvation" rather than just receiving it.

Everything is relative. Outer darkness as no glory at all. Btw, we are in telestial glory right now. If you haven't recognized God's glory, that's quite an omission.

Please acknowledge the subjective-ness of your claim. You are not God. I could find some equally prideful Mormon thinking the are fighting on behalf of God also. It's simply self-righteousness, when in reality, true Christians don't cause strife.

So how does a sinner choose God without performing any works at all?


So, it sound like your saying everyone that doesnt agree with you are "sinners", and Christians are simply born into salvation - no works performed whatsoever to accept Christ.
If I challenge the logic, the I am disagreeing with God, not you, and I'm imposing my will upon God. The is just Calvinism on steroids.

All this to avoid the reality of your bigotry, (believing that Mormons can only "earn" salvation rather than acting with an eye single to God's glory in receiving salvation), and that works are a part of demonstrating our faith in Christ.

All I can say is you are the mirror reflection of dberrie, just fighting for your side. It won't matter what I say. You just repeat your talking points just like he does.

No. Anyone that has spent more than a day on the board knows that I challenge Mormon beliefs and seek to help them understand the truthfulness of "faith alone", which NOW I cant even talk about. So I'm forced to defend against your stupid "earning salvation" argument.

You don't even KNOW me. You have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to my beliefs. Your reasoning cant seem to rise above "Mormon" = "bad". There's a word for that, but it would probably get me suspended if I was too blunt about it. All I can say, I know true Christians that are not Mormon, and you are nothing like them. All I can sense in your tone is hatred.

Aaron, what has happened to you? You weren’t this offensive and insulting before.

I recall before leaving the Mormon church that I went thru a time of feeling very angry. I could no longer defend mormonism, but instead of acknowledging why, I lashed out at people who were telling me the truth. A lot like you’re doing now. I took out my frustrations about being let down by the church I’d given my life to on people who were trying to help me understand it. It seems you may have taken a turn in that direction.

When you finally realize you can’t fight it anymore, please just stay open to Christ. That moment when you hit bottom and just feel empty, confused and alone… that’s a defining moment. You can choose real humility, or turn against God. It’s a moment when you learn the real meaning of faith, and when a real relationship with Christ can begin.

You’re in my prayers.

 

[Aaron32]

Aaron, what has happened to you? You weren’t this offensive and insulting before.

I recall before leaving the Mormon church that I went thru a time of feeling very angry. I could no longer defend mormonism, but instead of acknowledging why, I lashed out at people who were telling me the truth. A lot like you’re doing now. I took out my frustrations about being let down by the church I’d given my life to on people who were trying to help me understand it. It seems you may have taken a turn in that direction.

When you finally realize you can’t fight it anymore, please just stay open to Christ. That moment when you hit bottom and just feel empty, confused and alone… that’s a defining moment. You can choose real humility, or turn against God. It’s a moment when you learn the real meaning of faith, and when a real relationship with Christ can begin.

You’re in my prayers.

I'll PM you on what's happened to me over the past few months.

But beyond that, stop dismissing my words on the sole basis I'm a Mormon. Why can't you acknowledge that what I'm saying about Janice is true? Can bias not be acknowledged here? Why aren't you calling her out, and simply defending truth?

True of false - both Mormons and Christians perform works?

 

[Magdalena]

I'll PM you on what's happened to me over the past few months.

But beyond that, stop dismissing my words on the sole basis I'm a Mormon. Why can't you acknowledge that what I'm saying about Janice is true? Can bias not be acknowledged here? Why aren't you calling her out, and simply defending truth?

True of false - both Mormons and Christians perform works?

I have no reason to “call her out.” What for? For saying that Mormon doctrine is works based, meaning working for your salvation and exaltation? Trying to earn it? That’s the truth.

 

[Aaron32]

I have no reason to “call her out.” What for? For saying that Mormon doctrine is works based, meaning working for your salvation and exaltation? Trying to earn it? That’s the truth.

Typical. Your argument is based on a false premise. The scriptures contradict you:

Alma 5
10 And now I ask of you on what conditions are they saved? Yea, what grounds had they to hope for salvation? What is the cause of their being loosed from the bands of death, yea, and also the chains of hell?
11 Behold, I can tell you—did not my father Alma believe in the words which were delivered by the mouth of Abinadi? And was he not a holy prophet? Did he not speak the words of God, and my father Alma believe them?
12 And according to his faith there was a mighty change wrought in his heart. Behold I say unto you that this is all true.
13 And behold, he preached the word unto your fathers, and a mighty change was also wrought in their hearts, and they humbled themselves and put their trust in the true and living God. And behold, they were faithful until the end; therefore they were saved.

 

[Magdalena]

Typical. Your argument is based on a false premise. The scriptures contradict you:

Alma 5
10 And now I ask of you on what conditions are they saved? Yea, what grounds had they to hope for salvation? What is the cause of their being loosed from the bands of death, yea, and also the chains of hell?
11 Behold, I can tell you—did not my father Alma believe in the words which were delivered by the mouth of Abinadi? And was he not a holy prophet? Did he not speak the words of God, and my father Alma believe them?
12 And according to his faith there was a mighty change wrought in his heart. Behold I say unto you that this is all true.
13 And behold, he preached the word unto your fathers, and a mighty change was also wrought in their hearts, and they humbled themselves and put their trust in the true and living God. And behold, they were faithful until the end; therefore they were saved.

“For we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23).

You act like I don’t know what mormon doctrine and practice is. I’ve seen you argue with other Mormons about this, and they’ve told you it’s doctrine too.

I get it that you don’t want this to be true about your church, but it is.

And it’s not just believing and being faithful to the end. It’s a whole list of other requirements Mormons have added. You know that. You attend tithing settlement every year to report on whether you’re paying a full 10%. If you don’t pay it, you can’t go to the temple to get your “saving” ordinances. If you’re not married, and married in the Mormon temple, you can’t get into the highest level of the celestial kingdom, where God lives. There’s a long list of works you have to perform to earn your rewards.

Thats the truth.

 

[Richard7]

Like yours? Continuing to evade the topic.

I apologized.... hmm

 

[Janice Bower]

Then your argument is illogical. One person does no good work in choosing Christ, because if they did that would be "earning salvation" rather than just receiving it.

Faith is a gift of God. Making a choice is neither good nor bad. Man's reasoning is based on more than desire. Mormons claim that all are not equal because some were judged noble in pre-mortality.

Everything is relative. Outer darkness as no glory at all. Btw, we are in telestial glory right now. If you haven't recognized God's glory, that's quite an omission.

Please acknowledge the subjective-ness of your claim. You are not God. I could find some equally prideful Mormon thinking the are fighting on behalf of God also. It's simply self-righteousness, when in reality, true Christians don't cause strife.

Self-righteousness? I wasn't chosen by God based on my sins or lack of sins. This isn't is a competion.

Strife exists whether you want to pretend you caused some or not. So you think you are a true Christian or do you think you are not? Do you believe the following Mormon scriptures?

1 Nephi 14
10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

Doctrine and covenants 1
30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, fspeaking unto the church collectively and not individually

So how does a sinner choose God without performing any works at all?

Sinners choose to be part of the world because they like it.

The whole world lieth in wickedness. Which person is going to choose Christ? Will it be the Mormon or the one in the church of the devil? Which person has the advantage?

Alma 34
34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful acrisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth bpossess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.


NIV
We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

KJV
And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.


Ephesians 2
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

So, it sound like your saying everyone that doesnt agree with you are "sinners", and Christians are simply born into salvation - no works performed whatsoever to accept Christ.
If I challenge the logic, the I am disagreeing with God, not you, and I'm imposing my will upon God. The is just Calvinism on steroids.

If you disagree with a Christian, will you suffer? People disagree with others every day.

All this to avoid the reality of your bigotry, (believing that Mormons can only "earn" salvation rather than acting with an eye single to God's glory in receiving salvation), and that works are a part of demonstrating our faith in Christ.

You are bigoted towards others whom you regard as bigots. Joseph Smith had plenty of criticism towards the Christians in his community, towards the Trinity, towards the translators of the Bible, towards non-Mormon churches.

I agree with your leaders that some have taught there are requirements for earning eternal life. You accuse me of believing that Mormons teach eternal life has to be earned and I quoted those leaders. Why are you arguing otherwise? Are you suggesting that no works are necessary?

Are you acting with an eye single to God's glory in receiving salvation, and that works are a part of demonstrating our faith in Christ. Where did you learn that? That's the not the Mormonism I was taught.

All I can say is you are the mirror reflection of dberrie, just fighting for your side. It won't matter what I say. You just repeat your talking points just like he does.

No. Anyone that has spent more than a day on the board knows that I challenge Mormon beliefs and seek to help them understand the truthfulness of "faith alone", which NOW I cant even talk about. So I'm forced to defend against your stupid "earning salvation" argument.

Should I thank you for calling your past leaders stupid???

You don't even KNOW me. You have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to my beliefs. Your reasoning cant seem to rise above "Mormon" = "bad". There's a word for that, but it would probably get me suspended if I was too blunt about it. All I can say, I know true Christians that are not Mormon, and you are nothing like them. All I can sense in your tone is hatred.

I don't hate you or anyone else. I'm very sorry that you sense hatred. If I suspected you believed the Mormonism I was taught, I apologize. But if truth doesn't change how can you believe another Mormonism?

I was told to memorize this:

D&C 93
24 And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;

I thought it meant that truth doesn't change. Was I missing something?

 

[Richard7]

I have no reason to “call her out.” What for? For saying that Mormon doctrine is works based, meaning working for your salvation and exaltation? Trying to earn it? That’s the truth.

May I interject... nothing you stated above about earned salvation is true.... we have proven it over and over and yet the purposeful misinformation never stops...

 

[Aaron32]

May I interject... nothing you stated above about earned salvation is true.... we have proven it over and over and yet the purposeful misinformation never stops...

Amen!

 

[Janice Bower]

Amen!

So you are saying that your leaders gave out bogus statements when they claimed that eternal life had to be earned. WHY did they do that?

Why were some spirits in pre-mortality more noble than others?

Abraham 3
19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all...

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

(Joseph Smith had his moments when he taught predestination. Afterwards Mormons tried to wiggle out of that.)

Why did God choose some over others?

Blessings in mortality are/were supposedly based on behavior in the first estate:

"Since the gospel is eternal and God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and since He is dealing with the same group of spirits, meaning you and me and the rest of us on earth, both in the pre-existent state as well as here, is there any reason why the Lord’s method of dealing with sinners and saints in the pre-existence should be different from his method of dealing with them here?

"For sins we commit here, we will be given places in the eternal world, in the celestial, terrestrial, and the telestial kingdoms, and as one star differeth from another in glory, so also is the resurrection of the dead. There will be wide variations of classifications in the hereafter, all based on our performance here in this life.

"Is there any reason to think that the same principle of rewards and punishments did not apply to us and our deeds in the pre-existent world as will apply hereafter? Is there reason then why the type of birth we receive in this life is not a reflection of our worthiness or lack of it in the pre-existent life? We must accept the justice of God. He is fair to all. He is not a respector of persons. He will meet to us according to what we deserve. With that in mind, we can account in no other way."
-Elder Mark E. Petersen, 8/27/54


Some based on their obedience receive rewards greater than others because they earned those rewards, right? If not why are they considered more noble? Some get the promotion; some don't. Some get the merit badge; some don't. Some can have the priesthood; others can't. Some people were judged more noble prior to mortality.

"We must accept the fact of pre-existence, and that in our pre-existence we had free agency. We could be lazy there or we could be industrious. We could be obedient or careless. We could choose to follow Christ or to follow Lucifer...

"Is there any reason to think that the same principle of rewards and punishments did not apply to us and our deeds in the pre-existent world as will apply hereafter? Is there reason then why the type of birth we receive in this life is not a reflection of our worthiness or lack of it in the pre-existent life? We must accept the justice of God. He is fair to all. He is not a respector of persons. He will meet to us according to what we deserve. With that in mind, we can account in no other way."
-Elder Mark E. Petersen, 8/27/54

"Our place among the tribes and nations evidently was assigned to us by the Lord. That there was an assignment of this kind before earth life began is a declaration of the scriptures. Certain spirits were chosen to come through the lineage of Abraham, and this choice was made in the beginning. Other selections were also made, and the nations determined upon by the councils in the heavens. When Paul was speaking on Mars Hill, he said to the Athenians, ‘Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious, for as I passed by and beheld your devotions, I found an alter with this inscription, ‘To the unknown God.’ Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him I declare unto you. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth dwelleth not in temples made with hands, neither is worshipped with men’s hands as though he needed anything. Seeing He giveth to to all life and breath and all things; and hath made of one blood all nations of men, for to dwell on the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed and the bounds of their habitation.”
-Joseph Fielding Smith, Preassignement to nation or tribe, The Way to Perfection


Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Janice Bower]

Faith is a gift of God. Making a choice is neither good nor bad. Man's reasoning is based on more than desire. Mormons claim that all are not equal because some were judged noble in pre-mortality.


Self-righteousness? I wasn't chosen by God based on my sins or lack of sins. This isn't is a competion.

Strife exists whether you want to pretend you caused some or not. So you think you are a true Christian or do you think you are not? Do you believe the following Mormon scriptures?

1 Nephi 14
10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

Doctrine and covenants 1
30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, fspeaking unto the church collectively and not individually

Sinners choose to be part of the world because they like it.

The whole world lieth in wickedness. Which person is going to choose Christ? Will it be the Mormon or the one in the church of the devil? Which person has the advantage?

Alma 34
34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful acrisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth bpossess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.


NIV
We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

KJV
And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.


Ephesians 2
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.


If you disagree with a Christian, will you suffer? People disagree with others every day.


You are bigoted towards others whom you regard as bigots. Joseph Smith had plenty of criticism towards the Christians in his community, towards the Trinity, towards the translators of the Bible, towards non-Mormon churches.

I agree with your leaders that some have taught there are requirements for earning eternal life. You accuse me of believing that Mormons teach eternal life has to be earned and I quoted those leaders. Why are you arguing otherwise? Are you suggesting that no works are necessary?

Are you acting with an eye single to God's glory in receiving salvation, and that works are a part of demonstrating our faith in Christ. Where did you learn that? That's the not the Mormonism I was taught.




Should I thank you for calling your past leaders stupid???




I don't hate you or anyone else. I'm very sorry that you sense hatred. If I suspected you believed the Mormonism I was taught, I apologize. But if truth doesn't change how can you believe another Mormonism?

I was told to memorize this:

D&C 93
24 And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;

I thought it meant that truth doesn't change. Was I missing something?

I was told to memorize this:

D&C 93
24 And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;

I thought it meant that truth doesn't change. Was I missing something?

 

[Magdalena]

May I interject... nothing you stated above about earned salvation is true.... we have proven it over and over and yet the purposeful misinformation never stops...

You can deny it all you want, but your scriptures and practices prove otherwise. There’s a long list of works you have to do to earn your salvation and exaltation. If you don’t earn salvation, you can’t be exalted. You have “saving ordinances” that carry qualifying requirements (work).

Tithing is a qualifying requirement, and a work. You go in every year to report whether you’re paying a full 10% or not. If you refuse to pay tithing, you can’t get your saving ordinances. If you can’t get your saving ordinances, which are also a work, then you can’t get into your temple to get your other ordinances, which are also works, and you can’t be exalted. You do temple “work” for everyone who has died, as well. Because they can’t do their own work to earn their own salvation and exaltation.

 

[dberrie2020]

“For we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23).

You act like I don’t know what mormon doctrine and practice is. I’ve seen you argue with other Mormons about this, and they’ve told you it’s doctrine too.

I get it that you don’t want this to be true about your church, but it is.

And it’s not just believing and being faithful to the end. It’s a whole list of other requirements Mormons have added. You know that. You attend tithing settlement every year to report on whether you’re paying a full 10%. If you don’t pay it, you can’t go to the temple to get your “saving” ordinances. If you’re not married, and married in the Mormon temple, you can’t get into the highest level of the celestial kingdom, where God lives. There’s a long list of works you have to perform to earn your rewards.

Thats the truth.

So--is it as long as Paul's list?

Galatians 5:19-21--English Standard Version
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

That's a long list! And when Paul is finished, he adds this trailer--"and things like this". That could be dozens more.

Matthew 10:22---English Standard Version
22 and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Would you like to do a take-off on those scriptures?

 

[dberrie2020]

You can deny it all you want, but your scriptures and practices prove otherwise. There’s a long list of works you have to do to earn your salvation and exaltation. If you don’t earn salvation, you can’t be exalted. You have “saving ordinances” that carry qualifying requirements (work).

I was wondering--is being worthy one of your pet peeves?

2 Thessalonians 1:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

1 Timothy 5:18--King James Version (KJV)
18 For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

Colossians 1:10--King James Version (KJV)
10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

 

[dberrie2020]

Faith is a gift of God.

Does God judge His servants in accordance with what they do with the gifts?

Matthew 25:14-30---King James Version
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[brotherofJared]

Why were some spirits in pre-mortality more noble than others?

That has nothing to do with exaltation. Why are some people in mortality more noble than others?

 

[brotherofJared]

Joseph Smith had his moments when he taught predestination.

He never taught predestination. Some people believe we are the way we are because of nurture or nature, maybe a little bit of both, but that is clearly not the case. Of course, we can't put people in exactly the same environment with exactly the same influences, but we can get pretty close and, AFAIK, there are no instances where any two people turned out with the same perspectives. The point is, our character is an eternal part of us and is the lens through which we interpret nature and nurture. As such, God knows our character, and just as there are noble and great ones today in mortality, so also were there great and noble ones before the world was created. God didn't make them that way. He didn't destinate them to be that way (that follows our critics' doctrine where God makes evil and good people and they have no choice but to be good or evil).

God, knowing the character of all of us before we were born in the flesh, chose among them because he knew them. He didn't make them that way. They were already that way. He didn't choose them to succeed. He chose them to lead.

 

[brotherofJared]

Blessings in mortality are/were supposedly based on behavior in the first estate:

"Since the gospel is eternal and God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and since He is dealing with the same group of spirits, meaning you and me and the rest of us on earth, both in the pre-existent state as well as here, is there any reason why the Lord’s method of dealing with sinners and saints in the pre-existence should be different from his method of dealing with them here?

This is completely unrelated to your suppositions

"For sins we commit here, we will be given places in the eternal world, in the celestial, terrestrial, and the telestial kingdoms, and as one star differeth from another in glory, so also is the resurrection of the dead. There will be wide variations of classifications in the hereafter, all based on our performance here in this life.

Again, this has nothing to do with your OP. Nothing in the statement is even remotely connected with "earning a physical body"

"Is there any reason to think that the same principle of rewards and punishments did not apply to us and our deeds in the pre-existent world as will apply hereafter?

This could be related, but if you'll notice it is speculation. he's asking a question appealing to one's ability to think critically. This question with my answer parallels my answer to your comments about predestination.

Logically, there is no reason why great and noble ones would exist in the pre-existence because we can see that they exist now. People who change the course of history, Joseph Smith being one among many, Luther also along with the founding fathers of this nation just to name a few. There is no reason to believe that any of these magnificent people were any less in the pre-existence than they were in their mortal life. The same is true of the opposite type of characters. But here's the problem, what sins could be committed by a spirit being? Can they kill? No. Can they steal? No. Can they bear false witness or covet? No. Can they commit adultery? No. All these things require bodies. But did God know the characters? Did he know what they'd do in a given situation? Every person has the same opportunity. The path one takes is one's own choice. it is not dictated. The consequences are a natural result of those choices.

Is there reason then why the type of birth we receive in this life is not a reflection of our worthiness or lack of it in the pre-existent life?

Again, one can't help but notice the tone of speculation. This is a question. He is not establishing doctrine. No doubt God does choose where and when we are born. I don't think anyone doubts that. We are not the first people to wonder why or how God chooses where we will be born but it is definitely predestinated and we have very little control, if any, over that decision.

Again, the difference between our beliefs is that we believe the entire human family was predestinated before the earth was even formed whereas you guys believe that God made us the way we are at the moment of birth. That has significant implications that none of you are willing to consider. But, as I said, your quote is speculation, not doctrine. It's based on common sense which is based on what we can see. We have society here. There must have been society there. We have great and noble people here. There must have been great and noble people there. We have super wicked people here. They must have had super wicked people there (we are told of at least one).

I question your interpretation of these comments about "this life being a reflection of our worthiness or lack of it in the pre-existent life". Who is to say how worthiness is to be reflected? Do we assume that the rich and famous were more worthy in the pre-existent life? Are we to assume that the leader of a particular church lived a more worthy life? What if religion had nothing to do with it at all? We consider the founding fathers of this nation to be amove the great and noble ones. Not one of them was a member of our church. Tyndale and Luther were also among them, I believe.

But if you look at the rest of the quote, you'll see that the author draws no conclusion about what is that worthiness entails. I believe worthy and great ones can be found in all walks of life whether it be an aboriginal tribesman or a senator in our government regardless of their religion. That's the fundamental difference between our religions. You all seem to think you're in charge of righteousness and judgment. We believe God is. Is it not possible that God may have placed people in circumstances where they could not obtain the gospel because the law bringeth wrath? Think about that for a moment. If God had a plan to grant all nations, kindred and tounges his salvational grace then it would behoove him to keep some people out of harm's way and prepare for them a way to receive the gospel at another time. If he could do it for those who were once disobedient in the days of Noah, he could certainly do it for those who have died more recently.

 

[Janice Bower]

Colossians 1:10--King James Version (KJV)
10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

Colossians 1
9For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; 12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

We give thanks to God for what HE hath done and is doing in the ones HE is saving!

 

[Janice Bower]

If a man will enter into life, then he must abide in the law of the gospel, keeping all of the commandments to the end of his mortal life. This is the doctrine of the Prophet Joseph Smith. "I . . . spoke to the people," he says, "showing that to get salvation we must not only do some things, but everything which God has commanded. Men may preach and practice everything except those things which God commands us to do, and will be damned at last. We may tithe mint and rue, and all manner of herbs, and still not obey God."42
42 Joseph Fielding Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 332.

Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:34