LDS prophet on Seer Stone in the Hat

[Markk]

Ralf, please comment on this video...I have asked you to several times, but you are avoiding the discussion.

President Nelson states that Joseph Smith translates the BoM with the seer stone, in a hat pressed to his face. And give a partial demonstration to the Primary President.

 

[Richard7]

Ralf, please comment on this video...I have asked you to several times, but you are avoiding the discussion.

President Nelson states that Joseph Smith translates the BoM with the seer stone, in a hat pressed to his face. And give a partial demonstration to the Primary President.

I already did, did you not read my review?

 

[Richard7]

I already did, did you not read my review?

Waiting for Markk to acknowledge my reply about Pres. Nelson. hmm

 

[Richard7]

Still waiting Markk...

 

[Markk]

Ralf we discussed this on the other thread. Nelson is clear and even demonstrates he put a stone in the hat and likens it to a cell phone. The primary president agrees, kind off, she seemed very uncomfortable, but went along with it.

You seem to conflate accounts as a negative when in fact the different accounts obviously support the stone in the hat as your prophet demonstrates very clearly.

Do you believe President Nelson is also a fool and progressionist, in that he is parroting Bushman (or the other way around?) on this? They both quote David Witmer as a source for the seer stone in the hat for translating the BoM, and Nelson did so more than a decade or two, before Bushman did, at least in RSR.

 

[Markk]

LOL what does he say after he said suggestions? Right before he picked up the hat? I am at the car wash so can’t listen to it, but if you don’t want to be honest with what he said…I will do so later.

 

[Richard7]

So what about the stone in the hat? How did that work?



Links to unofficial Mormon websites not allowed on here. Plus, too many links per post.--Moderator

The principal scribe, Oliver Cowdery, testified under oath in 1831 that Joseph Smith “found with the plates, from which he translated his book, two transparent stones, resembling glass, set in silver bows. That by looking through these, he was able to read in English, the reformed Egyptian characters, which were engraved on the plates.”31 In the fall of 1830, Cowdery visited Union Village, Ohio, and spoke about the translation of the Book of Mormon. Soon thereafter, a village resident reported that the translation was accomplished by means of “two transparent stones in the form of spectacles thro which the translator looked on the engraving.”32

Book of Mormon Translation

By the gift and power of God, Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon from an ancient record inscribed on gold plates.

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

 

[Richard7]

LOL what does he say after he said suggestions? Right before he picked up the hat? I am at the car wash so can’t listen to it, but if you don’t want to be honest with what he said…I will do so later.

Well I posted to you what he did say, "Pres. Nelson stated, we have a lot of suggestions how this was done,
Suggestions: proposal, proposition, motion, submission, action point, recommendation; advice, counsel, hint, tip, clue, idea, trial balloon.2 the suggestion of a smirk: hint, trace, touch, suspicion, dash, soupçon, tinge; ghost, semblance, shadow, glimmer, impression, whisper.

 

[Richard7]

LOL what does he say after he said suggestions? Right before he picked up the hat? I am at the car wash so can’t listen to it, but if you don’t want to be honest with what he said…I will do so later.

Well in another talk he stated this: The details of this miraculous method of translation are still not fully known. Yet we do have a few precious insights.

Moroni told him that “there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of [the American] continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;

“Also, that there were two stones in silver bows—and these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim—deposited with the plates; and the possession and use of these stones were what constituted ‘seers’ in ancient or former times; and that God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book.” (JS—H 1:34–35.)

 

[Elijah the Tishbite]

Well in another talk he stated this: The details of this miraculous method of translation are still not fully known. Yet we do have a few precious insights.

Moroni told him that “there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of [the American] continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;

“Also, that there were two stones in silver bows—and these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim—deposited with the plates; and the possession and use of these stones were what constituted ‘seers’ in ancient or former times; and that God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book.” (JS—H 1:34–35.)

Answers to Gospel Questions Vol. 3 pp 98-99 under Counsel given by President Charles W. Penrose

Now, some of our brethren have taken up quite a discussion as to the fulness of the everlasting gospel. We are told that the Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the gospel, that those who like to get up a dispute, say that the Book of Mormon does not contain any reference to the work of salvation for the dead, and that there are many other things pertaining to the gospel that are not developed in that book, and yet we are told that the book contains "the fulness of the everlasting gospel." well what is the fulnesspel? You read carefully the revelation in regard to the three glories, section 76, in the Doctrine and Covanants, and you find there defined what the gospel is, There God the Eternal Father, and Jesus Christ, his son, and the Holy Ghost, are held up as the three persons in the Trinity-the one God the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, all three being one God. When people believe in that doctrine and obey the ordinances which are spoken of in the same list of principals, you get the fulness of the gospel for this reason:

General Conference Report, April 1922, pp 27-28.

 

[Markk]

Well in another talk he stated this: The details of this miraculous method of translation are still not fully known. Yet we do have a few precious insights.

Moroni told him that “there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of [the American] continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;

“Also, that there were two stones in silver bows—and these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim—deposited with the plates; and the possession and use of these stones were what constituted ‘seers’ in ancient or former times; and that God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book.” (JS—H 1:34–35.)

This is in context what he said...I want to say you are dishonest, but I honestly believe you just don't read in any context whatsoever.

The details of this miraculous method of translation are still not fully known. Yet we do have a few precious insights. David Whitmer wrote:

“Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.” (David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, Richmond, Mo.: n.p., 1887, p. 12.)

 

[Markk]

Well if you were the honest one, show where any of his accounts ever stated he saw with his own eyes the seer stone in a hat... good luck. If you ever actually do any research, then at least read the below site where he is interviewed or spoke on the seer stone in a hat. Do the research and get back to me good buddy.

David Whitmer: Man of Contradictions – An Analysis of Statements by David Whitmer on Translation of the Book of Mormon​

David Whitmer: Man of Contradictions – An Analysis of Statements

L.H. Pearson, Ph.D. Introduction After four years from the first meeting with Moroni on the Hill Cumorah, on 22 September 1827, Moroni gave Joseph Smith the sacred record written upon metal plates along with the Urim and Thummim and the breastplate. Joseph and Emma were married on January 18...

josephsmithfoundation.org

The church on their website, and the current prophet testifies it. The person you quote is unknown in regards to LDS history and apologetics…period, and his editing of various ‘testimonies” is falsely represented on the JS foundation website as this being a “paper.” The JS foundation rejects the words of the current prophet.

You are taking the word of a person no one knows nothing about over what your church teaches.

 

[Richard7]

The church on their website, and the current prophet testifies it. The person you quote is unknown in regards to LDS history and apologetics…period, and his editing of various ‘testimonies” is falsely represented on the JS foundation website as this being a “paper.” The JS foundation rejects the words of the current prophet.

You are taking the word of a person no one knows nothing about over what your church teaches.

The church on their website, and the current prophet testifies it. The person you quote is unknown in regards to LDS history and apologetics…period, and his editing of various ‘testimonies” is falsely represented on the JS foundation website as this being a “paper.” The JS foundation rejects the words of the current prophet.

You are taking the word of a person no one knows nothing about over what your church teaches.

Did you read the heading? I know you never read it or you would have come across 26 interviews and the authors names... chuckle, nice try Markk...

An Analysis of Statements by David Whitmer​

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Pres. Nelson never said what account was correct, so yes he used as a example one of those accounts and maybe he actually believes that account.​

Are you suggesting we all are so brainwashed that we have to go alone with every Prophet and apostles opinion? Brigham Young speculated also...​

 

[Markk]

Did you read the heading? I know you never read it or you would have come across 26 interviews and the authors names... chuckle, nice try Markk...

An Analysis of Statements by David Whitmer​

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​

Pres. Nelson never said what account was correct, so yes he used as a example one of those accounts and maybe he actually believes that account.​

Are you suggesting we all are so brainwashed that we have to go alone with every Prophet and apostles opinion? Brigham Young speculated also...​

LOL...what I am suggesting in all this, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, you have tied yourself into a historical pretzel...you conceded you do not read, and research and you do not believe what the church teaches on this subject.

So now you are saying that President Nelson, and the church, produced a video with the Primary President, on the mechanics of how the BoM was translated...and that he is doing so knowing it might be a false teaching.

I am also suggesting that you are so indoctrinated with the old narrative, you are not emotionally equipped to deal with the truth...like Boyd C Packer said..." the problem with historians, is that they are just too concerned with the truth!"

 

[Richard7]

LOL...what I am suggesting in all this, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, you have tied yourself into a historical pretzel...you conceded you do not read, and research and you do not believe what the church teaches on this subject.

Why not start by being truthful Markk, I do know very much about what I'm posting which has been researched and sourced unlike you who only speculates.
You seem very much bothered by this to the point maybe your faith is waning and it upset you to see that nothing is black and white and there is a huge divide between progressives (The New Mormonism ) and Traditionalist. Also with glee you shout for joy that folks like Arrington, Bushman, Vogel and John Dehlin are all causing the new generation to have faith Crisis.

So now you are saying that President Nelson, and the church, produced a video with the Primary President, on the mechanics of how the BoM was translated...and that he is doing so knowing it might be a false teaching.

He never said how it was done, he admitted there are many accounts and one account was the seer stone in a hat.
JS never stated how it was done, so you left with a 40 yr. later account by David Whitmere, a aging Emma Smith who was not in the room when JS supposedly switched to the seer stone and Martin Harris who always claimed it was the Urim and Thummim. So now your trying to convince yourself that the Urim and Thummim and seer stone were one and the same... oh my! whoops.

I wish anyone who wants the truth should watch the video you posted on Pres. Nelson and see if I'm not right...

I am also suggesting that you are so indoctrinated with the old narrative, you are not emotionally equipped to deal with the truth...like Boyd C Packer said..." the problem with historians, is that they are just too concerned with the truth!"

You're right, I do have intense feeling about finding the truth and not afraid to source my evidence versus one of little faith who can only speculate.

 

[Magdalena]

I watched the video again. Nelson said there were many suggestions. Then he said, “we know” that there was a table like this… and Joseph used the seer stones in the hat.

We know he used seer stones in a hat.

 

[Markk]

He never said how it was done, he admitted there are many accounts and one account was the seer stone in a hat.
JS never stated how it was done, so you left with a 40 yr. later account by David Whitmere, a aging Emma Smith who was not in the room when JS supposedly switched to the seer stone and Martin Harris who always claimed it was the Urim and Thummim. So now your trying to convince yourself that the Urim and Thummim and seer stone were one and the same... oh my! whoops.

I wish anyone who wants the truth should watch the video you posted on Pres. Nelson and see if I'm not right...

Ralf...you have claimed how it was done, with the Urim and Thummim, and you have denied how the church says it was translated, with stones in his hat. And you have waffled a lot in between.

But again, here, you discredited two of the three witnesses, Joseph wife, and the LDS church, general authorities and the Prophet, which shows a crack in your testimony.

I know you don't read what I write here, you admitted to that, but I'll try once more from LDS . org...

... "When Joseph Smith received the golden plates in 1827, he also received a translation instrument with them, “two stones in silver bows” used by “‘seers’ in ancient or former times” (Joseph Smith—History 1:35). This instrument was referred to in the Book of Mormon as the “interpreters.” During the translation of the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith apparently used both of these instruments—the interpreters and his seer stone—interchangeably. They worked in much the same way, and the early Saints sometimes used the term “Urim and Thummim” to refer to the seer stone as well as the interpreters. The Prophet also received several of the revelations found today in the Doctrine and Covenants by means of these instruments of revelation.3 As Joseph became more experienced in spiritual matters, he eventually started receiving revelation without these aids.4 ..."

Seer Stones

Seer Stones

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

Nevertheless, the scribes and others who observed the translation left numerous accounts that give insight into the process. Some accounts indicate that Joseph studied the characters on the plates. Most of the accounts speak of Joseph’s use of the Urim and Thummim (either the interpreters or the seer stone), and many accounts refer to his use of a single stone. According to these accounts, Joseph placed either the interpreters or the seer stone in a hat, pressed his face into the hat to block out extraneous light, and read aloud the English words that appeared on the instrument.26 The process as described brings to mind a passage from the Book of Mormon that speaks of God preparing “a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light.”27

Book of Mormon Translation

By the gift and power of God, Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon from an ancient record inscribed on gold plates.

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

I personally don't believe he used the interpreters after the 116 pages, Just the stone, but it is primarily what the churches teaches as this time. The primary firsthand accounts teach the stone in the hat.

Either way even if the spectacles were used interchangeably in the hat as you once pasted, then waffled, we know that at least part of the BoM was translated with the same stone that Joseph used while chasing buried treasures.

 

[Markk]

I watched the video again. Nelson said there were many suggestions. Then he said, “we know” that there was a table like this… and Joseph used the seer stones in the hat.

We know he used seer stones in a hat.

LOL, it really does not get clearer, especially after when he says, "we know," he sticks the hat up towards his face.

 

[Richard7]

LOL, it really does not get clearer, especially after when he says, "we know," he sticks the hat up towards his face.

Chuckle, yes seer stones is correct not the seer stone singular..... neither one of you understand meanings....
Plural: more then one. Like the stones in the Brest Plates or spectacles. Totally embarrassing for you guys.

 

[Magdalena]

I don’t know what’s so hard to understand about it…

Emma Smith… "Now the first that my husband translated, was translated by use of the Urim and Thummim, and that was the part that Martin Harris lost, after that he [my husband] used a small stone, not exactly black, but was rather a dark color." Quinn, D. Michael (1998), Early Mormonism and the Magic World View(2nd ed.), Salt Lake City: Signature Books, pp. 171–173

“Joseph Smith put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.”
— David Whitmer, "An Address to All Believers in Christ" (1887)

“In August 2015, the LDS Church released images of one of Smith's seer stones—a rounded, smoothed, brown and black stone—in a volume of the Joseph Smith Papers Project containing the printer's manuscript of the Book of Mormon.[1][2] The stone shown in the released images has been identified by geologists as a form of jasper, found in a banded iron formation, thus called banded jasper.”

Mormons publish photos of ‘seer stone’ used by Joseph Smith​

SALT LAKE CITY — The Mormon church for the first time is publishing photos of a small sacred stone it believes founder Joseph Smith used to help translate the story that became the basis of the rel…