LDS prophet on Seer Stone in the Hat

[Richard7]

false...CFR that she "borrowed" the account...and the U&T is the Seer stone by most accounts.

From the essays...

The scribes who assisted with the translation unquestionably believed that Joseph translated by divine power. Joseph’s wife Emma explained that she “frequently wrote day after day” at a small table in their house in Harmony, Pennsylvania. She described Joseph “sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us.”

Click here ralf

Joseph Fielding Smith said the following:

While the statement has been made by some writers that the Prophet Joseph Smith used a seer stone part of the time in his translating of the record, and information points to the fact that he did have in his possession such a stone, yet there is no authentic statement in the history of the Church which states that the use of such a stone was made in that translation. The information is all hearsay, and personally, I do not believe that this stone was used for this purpose. The reason I give for this conclusion is found in the statement of the Lord to the Brother of Jared as recorded in Ether 3:22–24. These stones, the Urim and Thummim which were given to the Brother of Jared, were preserved for this very purpose of translating the record, both of the Jaredites and the Nephites. Then again the Prophet was impressed by Moroni with the fact that these stones were given for that very purpose. It hardly seems reasonable to suppose that the Prophet would substitute something evidently inferior under these circumstances. It may have been so, but it is so easy for a story of this kind to be circulated due to the fact that the Prophet did possess a seer stone, which he may have used for some other purposes.

Joseph Smith

The idea that the Nephite interpreters were a more powerful version of Joseph’s seer stone is interesting, since it implies that there was something special about the stones themselves. It is more likely, however, that it was Joseph’s own perception that the stones were superior because these stones had been consecrated by God for the purpose of seeing things.

I cheerfully certify that I was familiar with the manner of Joseph Smith’s translating the book of Mormon. He translated the most of it at my Father’s house. And I often sat by and saw and heard them translate and write for hours together. Joseph never had a curtain drawn between him and his scribe while he was translating. He would place the director in his hat, and then place his [face in his] hat, so as to exclude the light, and then [read] to his scribe the words as they appeared before him.

Elizabeth Ann Whitmer Cowdery, Oliver Cowdery’s wife, 1870 Never stated it was a seer stone.

 

[Richard7]

How am I deflecting...I never said David came back, I stated Oliver did at the end of his life, was to sick to make it back to Utah, and died at Davids home in Missouri.

Read again what I wrote slowly on post 33...Oliver died at Davids house, they were friends...yet you claim David is a liar and a enemy of JS, yet they were very good friends and David took care of Oliver in his dying days. Remember also Oliver said that Joseph committed adultery and was ex'd for that and as far as I know never took that accusation back.

Start a thread about Oliver if you want...we can talk about how he felt about JS money digging and get into his excommunication.

Oliver was not ex'ed for that.... I gave you the details already about why Oliver was excommunicated...

If Oliver Cowdery was being adulterous, in that he took an additional “wife” without being properly authorized and married under Priesthood authority, his behavior warranted excommunication. (George Q. Cannon [ed.]. Juvenile Instructor, XVI: 18 [September 15, 1881], p. 206). Again we see Joseph Smith kept the integrity of the Church. An excommunicated, angry Cowdery could expose the “seam” if it was a hoax. Would Oliver Cowdery have returned to the Church in 1850 and would he have reaffirmed his testimony of the Book of Mormon if he really believed Joseph Smith was a fraud or adulterous?

 

[Richard7]

Mags, I agree. There was never a U&T though in the classic sense, never... only the seer stone, which early saints called the U&T. There was in some accounts the spectacles or interpreters, also called the U&T which the church teaches...but Joseph even called his stone the interpreter which muddies that. But almost all historians agree that only the stone, either the brown or white one, was used for the translation they have today, and for good reason once you start digging deep.

Book of Mormon Translation...
Joseph Smith and his scribes wrote of two instruments used in translating the Book of Mormon. According to witnesses of the translation, when Joseph looked into the instruments, the words of scripture appeared in English. One instrument, called in the Book of Mormon the “interpreters,” is better known to Latter-day Saints today as the “Urim and Thummim.” Joseph found the interpreters buried in the hill with the plates.16 Those who saw the interpreters described them as a clear pair of stones bound together with a metal rim. The Book of Mormon referred to this instrument, together with its breastplate, as a device “kept and preserved by the hand of the Lord” and “handed down from generation to generation, for the purpose of interpreting languages.”

I'm super busy with work, but when I get a chance, I will paste some data that shows how another Seer, I think it was Lawarence? but don't hold me to it; but basically, they had a "seer war" with Joseph, and forced Joseph to see the spectacles with his stone, by saying he, Lawarence, saw the spectacles with the plates through his seer stone, and asking Joseph if he saw them too, which he had to say he did. It is really an interesting view.

Chuckle, yes do that it will be great to debate you on that: Vogel and others just love Mormonism Unveiled, a proven disaster of misinformation and lies.

The source for Samuel T. Lawrence being involved with Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon plates comes from Willard Chase, as published in Eber Howe’s book, Mormonism Unvailed. According to him when Joseph Smith went to get the plates in 1823, a spirit told him he couldn’t take them unless he had his brother Alvin with him. When he went the next year, Alvin had died, and the spirit instead said that he needed to bring the right man with him, and that he would know him when he saw him.

Joseph believed that one Samuel T. Lawrence was the man alluded to by the spirit, and went with him to a singular looking hill, in Manchester, and shewed him where the treasure was. Lawrence asked him if he had ever discovered any thing with the plates of gold; he said no: he then asked him to look in his stone, to see if there was any thing with them. He looked, and said there was nothing; he told him to look again, and see if there was not a large pair of specks with the plates; he looked and soon saw a pair of spectacles, the same with which Joseph says he translated the Book of Mormon. Lawrence told him it would not be prudent to let these plates be seen for about two years, as it would make a great disturbance in the neighborhood. Not long after this, Joseph altered his mind, and said L. was not the right man, nor had he told him the right place.

 

[Markk]

Joseph Fielding Smith said the following:




Joseph Smith



I cheerfully certify that I was familiar with the manner of Joseph Smith’s translating the book of Mormon. He translated the most of it at my Father’s house. And I often sat by and saw and heard them translate and write for hours together. Joseph never had a curtain drawn between him and his scribe while he was translating. He would place the director in his hat, and then place his [face in his] hat, so as to exclude the light, and then [read] to his scribe the words as they appeared before him.

Elizabeth Ann Whitmer Cowdery, Oliver Cowdery’s wife, 1870 Never stated it was a seer stone.

Ralf...the director is the seer stone, what are you trying to convey and assert? I gave you this quote weeks ago and you laughed...now you paste it? classic. Rember this is Olivers future wife who you denied saw the translation happen, now you quote her doing just that, testifying she saw the translation ( in that 700 sq ft home).

If you believe it was not a seer stone, what do you think it was. But anyways you concede that she saw the translation often, with his face in his hat. we are getting closer...ponder on this.

Ralf Click Here and ponder on this LDS site

Also click on foot note #10 when you link the site, and see who the Church references, and who's book?

More tomorrow

 

[Richard7]

Ralf...the director is the seer stone, what are you trying to convey and assert? I gave you this quote weeks ago and you laughed...now you paste it? classic. Rember this is Olivers future wife who you denied saw the translation happen, now you quote her doing just that, testifying she saw the translation ( in that 700 sq ft home).

Your stretching again good buddy.... oh by the way, another lie by David Whitmer.... ridiculous good buddy. But that's your man....

September 22, 1828. It was promised that Moroni would return the plates to Joseph on this familiar date.44 David Whitmer said of this time that “the plates, however, were not returned, but instead Smith was given by the angel a Urim and Thummim of another pattern” (document 93; see also 94, 97, 106).

The director was only named once, show me where it states the seer stone is the director... see below for a better definition Markk.

• The ball or director was called the Liahona, Alma 37:38.

If you believe it was not a seer stone, what do you think it was. But anyways you concede that she saw the translation often, with his face in his hat. we are getting closer...ponder on this.

• The ball or director was called the Liahona, Alma 37:38.

Ralf Click Here and ponder on this LDS site

Also click on foot note #10 when you link the site, and see who the Church references, and who's book?

More tomorrow

Nice try, how many of the below were first hand accounts? Stretching even more Markk, best to cut and run, nothing you produce tomorrow is going to help you...

“Mormonism,” Kansas City Daily Journal, 5 June 1881, 1; “Testimony of David Whitmer,” Saints’ Herald, 15 Nov. 1879, 341; Emma Smith Bidamon, Nauvoo, IL, to Emma Pilgrim, 27 Mar. 1870, in John Clark, “Translation of Nephite Records,” The Return, 15 July 1895, 2; see also Bushman, Rough Stone Rolling, 71–72; and “Joseph Smith Documents Dating through June 1831,” in JSP, D1:xxx–xxxi.

---

Comprehensive Works Cited

 

[Markk]

Book of Mormon Translation...
Joseph Smith and his scribes wrote of two instruments used in translating the Book of Mormon. According to witnesses of the translation, when Joseph looked into the instruments, the words of scripture appeared in English. One instrument, called in the Book of Mormon the “interpreters,” is better known to Latter-day Saints today as the “Urim and Thummim.” Joseph found the interpreters buried in the hill with the plates.16 Those who saw the interpreters described them as a clear pair of stones bound together with a metal rim. The Book of Mormon referred to this instrument, together with its breastplate, as a device “kept and preserved by the hand of the Lord” and “handed down from generation to generation, for the purpose of interpreting languages.”

Ralf...why did you stop? This is the process Elder Nelson speaks of in the video...I have given you the same descriptions dozens of times. Ralf the church teaches that Joseph used them interchangeably...


... "Joseph Smith and his scribes wrote of two instruments used in translating the Book of Mormon. According to witnesses of the translation, when Joseph looked into the instruments, the words of scripture appeared in English. One instrument, called in the Book of Mormon the “interpreters,” is better known to Latter-day Saints today as the “Urim and Thummim.” Joseph found the interpreters buried in the hill with the plates.16 Those who saw the interpreters described them as a clear pair of stones bound together with a metal rim. The Book of Mormon referred to this instrument, together with its breastplate, as a device “kept and preserved by the hand of the Lord” and “handed down from generation to generation, for the purpose of interpreting languages.”17

The other instrument, which Joseph Smith discovered in the ground years before he retrieved the gold plates, was a small oval stone, or “seer stone.”18 As a young man during the 1820s, Joseph Smith, like others in his day, used a seer stone to look for lost objects and buried treasure.19 As Joseph grew to understand his prophetic calling, he learned that he could use this stone for the higher purpose of translating scripture.20

Apparently for convenience, Joseph often translated with the single seer stone rather than the two stones bound together to form the interpreters. These two instruments—the interpreters and the seer stone—were apparently interchangeable and worked in much the same way such that, in the course of time, Joseph Smith and his associates often used the term “Urim and Thummim” to refer to the single stone as well as the interpreters... ."

From the JS Papers...which basically reads about the same.

Click Here Ralf​

Seer stone
Summary
A special stone used for seeing visions and aiding translation.1 According to a European tradition of folk belief reaching back at least into the middle ages, quartz crystals or other stones could be used to find missing objects or to see other things not visible to the natural eye.2 This practice accompanied European immigrants to North America and was part of JS’s cultural environment in western New York in the 1820s, though by then the practice was waning.3 In his youth, JS occasionally used seer stones to help neighbors find missing objects or search for buried treasure.4 By 1826, JS had at least two seer stones, and according to Brigham Young he eventually had five seer stones.5 According to JS, in 1823 an angelic messenger revealed to him the location of gold plates and an instrument with which to translate them.6 This instrument consisted of “two stones in silver bows” that had been used by “seers in ancient times.”7 The Book of Mormon itself referred to “interpreters” that were to be kept with the plates.8 JS explained that he used the pair of stones found with the plates in his translation of the Book of Mormon.9 Eyewitnesses reported that he also translated using a dark brown seer stone placed in a hat to exclude exterior light and that he used a seer stone for many of his early revelations.10 JS referred to the pair of stones found with the plates as “spectacles,” and he later referred to these stones and his other seer stones with the term “Urim and Thummim,” the name of the instrument used by the high priest of Israel in the Bible.11 In 1830, JS apparently began dictating most of his revelations without the aid of a seer stone

 

[Markk]

Chuckle, yes do that it will be great to debate you on that: Vogel and others just love Mormonism Unveiled, a proven disaster of misinformation and lies.

Well, that is just not true at all. They have never been proved to be a lie, and historians always try use all sources with caution, only using sources most often that compliment other sources. The accounts were signed by the neighbors/witnesses, and published in the paper, and the folks never retracted the published accounts.

Ralf, Chase and Lawrence were part of the Money digging company that Joseph and his family were part of. That is an undisputable fact from many sources. Lawrence was Josephs friend and even introduced him to Emma.

 

[Markk]

Your stretching again good buddy.... oh by the way, another lie by David Whitmer.... ridiculous good buddy. But that's your man....

September 22, 1828. It was promised that Moroni would return the plates to Joseph on this familiar date.44 David Whitmer said of this time that “the plates, however, were not returned, but instead Smith was given by the angel a Urim and Thummim of another pattern” (document 93; see also 94, 97, 106).

The director was only named once, show me where it states the seer stone is the director... see below for a better definition Markk.

• The ball or director was called the Liahona, Alma 37:38.

LOL...Ralf are you saying that Joseph was putting a compass in his hat now? That is a new one. I will note that.

In D&C 3, Joseph refers to it as the director ralf, it is in context with the fail of the 116 pages. Elizibeth Whitmer obviously understood it to be the stone...The specs would not fit in a hat, and...LOL, he was certainly noy looking at a compass in his hat.

11 Except thou ado this, thou shalt be delivered up and become as other men, and have no more gift.

12 And when thou deliveredst up that which God had given thee sight and power to atranslate, thou deliveredst up that which was bsacred into the hands of a wicked cman,

13 Who has set at naught the counsels of God, and has broken the most sacred promises which were made before God, and has depended upon his own judgment and aboasted in his own wisdom.

14 And this is the reason that thou hast lost thy privileges for a season—

15 For thou hast suffered the counsel of thy adirector to be trampled upon from the beginning.

Doctrine and Covenants 3

Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Harmony, Pennsylvania, July 1828, relating to the loss of 116 pages of manuscript translated from the first part of the Book of Mormon, which was called the book of Lehi. The Prophet had reluctantly allowed these pages to pass from his custody to...

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

Do you tell folks in your ward how much of a liar David Whitmer is? My boy? No ralf, I am only relating what your prophet believes and teaches.

 

[Richard7]

LOL...Ralf are you saying that Joseph was putting a compass in his hat now? That is a new one. I will note that.

While your'e doing that show where I ever said he did, your the one that claim the director and seer stone are the same... show me the source and first hand account on that one or just like you do move on to something else...the fact that I just proved you wrong must be a real blow to your ego... why don't you first do the research before backing you self into a corner...

In D&C 3, Joseph refers to it as the director ralf, it is in context with the fail of the 116 pages. Elizibeth Whitmer obviously understood it to be the stone...The specs would not fit in a hat, and...LOL, he was certainly noy looking at a compass in his hat.

Finally you got part of it right... not looking a a compass in the hat makes good sense, common sense for sure.
I have little faith in a hat, but the stones in the spectacles surely could have happened, again JS did not give details on the means or instruments.

11 Except thou ado this, thou shalt be delivered up and become as other men, and have no more gift.

12 And when thou deliveredst up that which God had given thee sight and power to atranslate, thou deliveredst up that which was bsacred into the hands of a wicked cman,

13 Who has set at naught the counsels of God, and has broken the most sacred promises which were made before God, and has depended upon his own judgment and aboasted in his own wisdom.

14 And this is the reason that thou hast lost thy privileges for a season—

15 For thou hast suffered the counsel of thy adirector to be trampled upon from the beginning.

Doctrine and Covenants 3

Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Harmony, Pennsylvania, July 1828, relating to the loss of 116 pages of manuscript translated from the first part of the Book of Mormon, which was called the book of Lehi. The Prophet had reluctantly allowed these pages to pass from his custody to...

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

Do you tell folks in your ward how much of a liar David Whitmer is? My boy? No ralf, I am only relating what your prophet believes and teaches.

Chuckle, I see you failed to click on the reference or Compare number 6

E the Lord; see v. 6.

Doctrine and Covenants 3:6

Doctrine and Covenants

6 And behold, how oft you have transgressed the commandments and the laws of God, and have gone on in the persuasions (directions) of men.

Really Mark, I though you were better in this, so dissapointed that your deep dive is more like a huge stretch... Big, big strain dude.

 

[Richard7]

Ralf...why did you stop? This is the process Elder Nelson speaks of in the video...I have given you the same descriptions dozens of times. Ralf the church teaches that Joseph used them interchangeably...

Copy and paste the quotes if that is true and who stated it.... I'm a little tired of trying to find your source for you...

... "Joseph Smith and his scribes wrote of two instruments used in translating the Book of Mormon. According to witnesses of the translation, when Joseph looked into the instruments, the words of scripture appeared in English. One instrument, called in the Book of Mormon the “interpreters,” is better known to Latter-day Saints today as the “Urim and Thummim.” Joseph found the interpreters buried in the hill with the plates.16 Those who saw the interpreters described them as a clear pair of stones bound together with a metal rim. The Book of Mormon referred to this instrument, together with its breastplate, as a device “kept and preserved by the hand of the Lord” and “handed down from generation to generation, for the purpose of interpreting languages.”17

The other instrument, which Joseph Smith discovered in the ground years before he retrieved the gold plates, was a small oval stone, or “seer stone.”18 As a young man during the 1820s, Joseph Smith, like others in his day, used a seer stone to look for lost objects and buried treasure.19 As Joseph grew to understand his prophetic calling, he learned that he could use this stone for the higher purpose of translating scripture.20

Apparently for convenience, Joseph often translated with the single seer stone rather than the two stones bound together to form the interpreters. These two instruments—the interpreters and the seer stone—were apparently interchangeable and worked in much the same way such that, in the course of time, Joseph Smith and his associates often used the term “Urim and Thummim” to refer to the single stone as well as the interpreters... ."

From the JS Papers...which basically reads about the same.

Click Here Ralf​

Seer stone
Summary
A special stone used for seeing visions and aiding translation.1 According to a European tradition of folk belief reaching back at least into the middle ages, quartz crystals or other stones could be used to find missing objects or to see other things not visible to the natural eye.2 This practice accompanied European immigrants to North America and was part of JS’s cultural environment in western New York in the 1820s, though by then the practice was waning.3 In his youth, JS occasionally used seer stones to help neighbors find missing objects or search for buried treasure.4 By 1826, JS had at least two seer stones, and according to Brigham Young he eventually had five seer stones.5 According to JS, in 1823 an angelic messenger revealed to him the location of gold plates and an instrument with which to translate them.6 This instrument consisted of “two stones in silver bows” that had been used by “seers in ancient times.”7 The Book of Mormon itself referred to “interpreters” that were to be kept with the plates.8 JS explained that he used the pair of stones found with the plates in his translation of the Book of Mormon.9 Eyewitnesses reported that he also translated using a dark brown seer stone placed in a hat to exclude exterior light and that he used a seer stone for many of his early revelations.10 JS referred to the pair of stones found with the plates as “spectacles,” and he later referred to these stones and his other seer stones with the term “Urim and Thummim,” the name of the instrument used by the high priest of Israel in the Bible.11 In 1830, JS apparently began dictating most of his revelations without the aid of a seer stone

A special stone used for seeing visions and aiding translation.1 According to a European tradition of folk belief reaching back at least into the middle ages, quartz crystals or other stones could be used to find missing objects or to see other things not visible to the natural eye.2 This practice accompanied European immigrants to North America and was part of JS’s cultural environment in western New York in the 1820s, though by then the practice was waning.3 In his youth, JS occasionally used seer stones to help neighbors find missing objects or search for buried treasure.4 By 1826, JS had at least two seer stones, and according to Brigham Young he eventually had five seer stones.5 According to JS, in 1823 an angelic messenger revealed to him the location of gold plates and an instrument with which to translate them.6 This instrument consisted of “two stones in silver bows” that had been used by “seers in ancient times.”7 The Book of Mormon itself referred to “interpreters” that were to be kept with the plates.8 JS explained that he used the pair of stones found with the plates in his translation of the Book of Mormon.9 Eyewitnesses reported that he also translated using a dark brown seer stone placed in a hat to exclude exterior light and that he used a seer stone for many of his early revelations.10 JS referred to the pair of stones found with the plates as “spectacles,” and he later referred to these stones and his other seer stones with the term “Urim and Thummim,” the name of the instrument used by the high priest of Israel in the Bible.11 In 1830, JS apparently began dictating most of his revelations without the aid of a seer stone.12 See also “Urim and Thummim.”
Note on Seer Stone Images

Compare #4...
Bushman, Richard Lyman. Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling. With the assistance of Jed Woodworth. New York: Knopf, 2005.

Compare #5...
“A Document Discovered,” Utah Christian Advocate, Jan. 1886, 1; General Church Minutes, 30 Sept. 1855.

---

Comprehensive Works Cited
Utah Christian Advocate. Salt Lake City. Jan. 1884–Nov. 1887.

Eyewitnesses reported that he also translated using a dark brown seer stone placed in a hat to exclude exterior light and that he used a seer stone for many of his early revelations.

Compare #12 Whitmer, Address to All Believers in Christ, 32; compare Historical Introduction to Revelation, 4 Nov. 1830 [D&C 34], in JSP, D1:208–210; and William E. McLellin, “Revelations,” Ensign of Liberty, Aug. 1849, 98–99; on JS apparently not using a seer stone in his work on the “new translation” of the Bible, see, for example, School of the Prophets Salt Lake City Minutes, 14 Jan. 1871; and “Two Days’ Meeting at Brigham City,” The Ogden Junction, 29 June 1874, 2; for accounts claiming that he used a seer stone in translating the Book of Abraham

Big chuckle...

 

[Richard7]

Well, that is just not true at all. They have never been proved to be a lie, and historians always try use all sources with caution, only using sources most often that compliment other sources. The accounts were signed by the neighbors/witnesses, and published in the paper, and the folks never retracted the published accounts.

Yep, you and you ilk love to believe someone who was convicted by a court for stating he will wash his hands in the blood of JS.
Then because of his bad reputation, Hubert had to sell his accounts to Howe for 500 dollars (Moronism Unveiled) the first anti-mormon publication Markk... Bushman, Vogel and other like ilk just loved the lies.

Ralf, Chase and Lawrence were part of the Money digging company that Joseph and his family were part of. That is an undisputable fact from many sources. Lawrence was Josephs friend and even introduced him to Emma.

Yep, real honest witness you got there Markk... faithful, honest, good citizens, truth sayer, and righteous ... chuckle. Chase, his sister and Lawerence were all part of the mob, Markk.
Not exactly what you would call great witnesses...

Word of the plates’ existence might have gotten out through a more sinister source. According to Joseph Knight Sr., one Samuel Lawrence in the neighborhood was a “Seear” (seer) who had been “to the hill and knew about the things in the hill and … was trying to obtain them.” Joseph Smith apparently was concerned enough about Lawrence that on 21 September, “near night,” he sent his father to Lawrence’s house “to see if there was any signs of his [Lawrence’s] going away that night.” Joseph reportedly told his father “to stay till near Dark and if he saw any signs of his going you till [tell] him if I find him there [at the Hill Cumorah] I will thrash the stumps with him.” Lawrence, fortunately for himself, chose to stay home that night.6 If Knight’s account is accurate, it could be that Lawrence and perhaps others had learned of the plates’ existence through information from adversarial sources.

Shortly after the Prophet left for Macedon, Joseph Sr. learned of “ten or twelve men” who, under the direction of Willard Chase (a Methodist leader in the neighborhood) and Samuel Lawrence, had sent 60 miles for a “conjuror” to help them find the plates.10 The following morning Joseph Sr. went to Samuel Lawrence’s home, where he found the men “devising many plans and schemes to find ‘Joe Smith’s gold bible,’ as they termed it.” Sitting down near the door and pretending to read a paper, Joseph Sr. overheard Lawrence’s wife caution the men to speak more quietly, at which the conjuror “bawled out at the top of his voice, ‘I am not afraid of anybody. We will have the plates in spite of Joe Smith or all the devils in hell.’”11

To make matters worse, the mob about this time enlisted the help of Willard Chase’s sister Sally in their efforts to obtain the plates. Sally Chase reportedly had a “green glass through which she could see many wonderful things” and had begun to apply her talents on behalf of her brother’s efforts to locate and obtain the plates. Thus, after “but a few days rest,” the Prophet “received another intimation of the approach of a mob and the necessity of removing the record … again from [its] hiding place,” and he dug up the plates.29

Accounts vary as to what Joseph did next, but it seems that he hid the plates, still housed in the same box, under the floor of a cooper’s shop located just across the road.30 After a “short time,” Joseph dug them up yet again, removed the plates from their box, reburied the box, and hid the plates—now wrapped in some clothing—in “a quantity of flax” being stored in the shop’s loft.31 The decoy worked. Following Sally Chase’s directions, the mob that night tore up the floor of the cooper’s shop and smashed the wooden box, but left the plates undisturbed in the loft a few feet above their heads.32

 

[Markk]

Yep, you and you ilk love to believe someone who was convicted by a court for stating he will wash his hands in the blood of JS.
Then because of his bad reputation, Hubert had to sell his accounts to Howe for 500 dollars (Moronism Unveiled) the first anti-mormon publication Markk... Bushman, Vogel and other like ilk just loved the lies.

Ralf, The affidavits were signed, printed in a paper, and never disputed by those that signed them. The church you belong too, holds the same lines as the folks that lived next to the Smiths on many issues, including, but not limited to, that Joseph was involved in Money Digging and he translate the Bom via a peep stone in his hat. Your prophet and church teach this, there is no dispute here.

Yep, real honest witness you got there Markk... faithful, honest, good citizens, truth sayer, and righteous ... chuckle. Chase, his sister and Lawerence were all part of the mob, Markk.
Not exactly what you would call great witnesses...

Actually, it was not called a mob, but a Money Digging company, and included in the company were Joseph Smith Jr. Joseph Smith Sr...and even Hyrum and others in the Smith family. The church admits JS was a money digger.

What's funny, is you call David Whitmer a liar, unless it is his testimony of the BoM. Are you saying that Hurbert does not deserve the same grace you give to David Whitmer?

 

[Markk]

Copy and paste the quotes if that is true and who stated it.... I'm a little tired of trying to find your source for you...

LOL ralf, what are you even talking about? I gave you a paste and link...here it is again

Joseph Smith and his scribes wrote of two instruments used in translating the Book of Mormon. According to witnesses of the translation, when Joseph looked into the instruments, the words of scripture appeared in English. One instrument, called in the Book of Mormon the “interpreters,” is better known to Latter-day Saints today as the “Urim and Thummim.” Joseph found the interpreters buried in the hill with the plates.16 Those who saw the interpreters described them as a clear pair of stones bound together with a metal rim. The Book of Mormon referred to this instrument, together with its breastplate, as a device “kept and preserved by the hand of the Lord” and “handed down from generation to generation, for the purpose of interpreting languages.”17

The other instrument, which Joseph Smith discovered in the ground years before he retrieved the gold plates, was a small oval stone, or “seer stone.”18 As a young man during the 1820s, Joseph Smith, like others in his day, used a seer stone to look for lost objects and buried treasure.19 As Joseph grew to understand his prophetic calling, he learned that he could use this stone for the higher purpose of translating scripture.20

Apparently for convenience, Joseph often translated with the single seer stone rather than the two stones bound together to form the interpreters. These two instruments—the interpreters and the seer stone—were apparently interchangeable and worked in much the same way such that, in the course of time, Joseph Smith and his associates often used the term “Urim and Thummim” to refer to the single stone as well as the interpreters.

Click here Ralf

 

[Markk]

While your'e doing that show where I ever said he did, your the one that claim the director and seer stone are the same... show me the source and first hand account on that one or just like you do move on to something else...the fact that I just proved you wrong must be a real blow to your ego... why don't you first do the research before backing you self into a corner...

Focus... Affidavit from Olivers wife and David's sister and peter Sr daughter...

She gave me a certificate And this is the copy. [Elizabeth Ann (Whitmer) Cowdery, affidavit], Richmond, Ray Co., Mo. Feb 15th 1870 —

"I cheerfully certify that I was familiar with the manner of Joseph Smith's translating the book of Mormon. He translated the most of it at my Father's house. And I often sat by and saw and heard them translate and write for hours together. Joseph never had a curtain drawn between him and his scribe while he was translating. He would place the director in his hat, and then place his [face in his] hat, so as to exclude the light, and then [read] to his scribe the words as they appeared before him."

https://www "dot" fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Book_of_Mormon/Translation/Method/1846-1900

Ralf directions: "Insert a period in place of "dot" on the link.

Ralf Focus again...this is what you assert the director was, the Liahona, or compass.

38 And now, my son, I have somewhat to say concerning the thing which our fathers call a ball, or director—or our fathers called it aLiahona, which is, being interpreted, a compass; and the Lord prepared it.

 

[Markk]

Finally you got part of it right... not looking a a compass in the hat makes good sense, common sense for sure.
I have little faith in a hat, but the stones in the spectacles surely could have happened, again JS did not give details on the means or instruments.

Your church does and your current prophet does, and the church teaches it. Are you a fringe member now? You call a BoM witness a liar, the very same liar your prophet quotes as being a true witness.

Do you hold a current TR? Did you lie to get it?

 

[Markk]

special stone used for seeing visions and aiding translation.1 According to a European tradition of folk belief reaching back at least into the middle ages, quartz crystals or other stones could be used to find missing objects or to see other things not visible to the natural eye.2 This practice accompanied European immigrants to North America and was part of JS’s cultural environment in western New York in the 1820s, though by then the practice was waning.3 In his youth, JS occasionally used seer stones to help neighbors find missing objects or search for buried treasure.4 By 1826, JS had at least two seer stones, and according to Brigham Young he eventually had five seer stones.5 According to JS, in 1823 an angelic messenger revealed to him the location of gold plates and an instrument with which to translate them.6 This instrument consisted of “two stones in silver bows” that had been used by “seers in ancient times.”7 The Book of Mormon itself referred to “interpreters” that were to be kept with the plates.8 JS explained that he used the pair of stones found with the plates in his translation of the Book of Mormon.9 Eyewitnesses reported that he also translated using a dark brown seer stone placed in a hat to exclude exterior light and that he used a seer stone for many of his early revelations.10 JS referred to the pair of stones found with the plates as “spectacles,” and he later referred to these stones and his other seer stones with the term “Urim and Thummim,” the name of the instrument used by the high priest of Israel in the Bible.11 In 1830, JS apparently began dictating most of his revelations without the aid of a seer stone.12 See also “Urim and Thummim.”
Note on Seer Stone Images

Compare #4...
Bushman, Richard Lyman. Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling. With the assistance of Jed Woodworth. New York: Knopf, 2005.

Compare #5...
“A Document Discovered,” Utah Christian Advocate, Jan. 1886, 1; General Church Minutes, 30 Sept. 1855.

LOL OKay did you read this at all? Thank you.

 

[Markk]

Comprehensive Works Cited
Utah Christian Advocate. Salt Lake City. Jan. 1884–Nov. 1887.

Eyewitnesses reported that he also translated using a dark brown seer stone placed in a hat to exclude exterior light and that he used a seer stone for many of his early revelations.

Compare #12 Whitmer, Address to All Believers in Christ, 32; compare Historical Introduction to Revelation, 4 Nov. 1830 [D&C 34], in JSP, D1:208–210; and William E. McLellin, “Revelations,” Ensign of Liberty, Aug. 1849, 98–99; on JS apparently not using a seer stone in his work on the “new translation” of the Bible, see, for example, School of the Prophets Salt Lake City Minutes, 14 Jan. 1871; and “Two Days’ Meeting at Brigham City,” The Ogden Junction, 29 June 1874, 2; for accounts claiming that he used a seer stone in translating the Book of Abraham

Big chuckle...

LOL yes...he used the seer stone in translating the book of Mormon...thanks you. I am just amazed you don't read before you paste...or????

 

[Markk]

Finally you got part of it right... not looking a a compass in the hat makes good sense, common sense for sure.
I have little faith in a hat, but the stones in the spectacles surely could have happened, again JS did not give details on the means or instruments.

No, but his wife and the other witnesses did, that is what we are discussing. and the church and the Prophet that holds the keys, whom you appear to no longer sustain or at the least trust, is clear.

 

[Richard7]

Ralf, The affidavits were signed, printed in a paper, and never disputed by those that signed them. The church you belong too, holds the same lines as the folks that lived next to the Smiths on many issues, including, but not limited to, that Joseph was involved in Money Digging and he translate the Bom via a peep stone in his hat. Your prophet and church teach this, there is no dispute here.

You want printed papers, what about all the great things printed and never disputed by his followers, your point lacks any common sense or perception of how inane you sound. JS translated by using the gold plates and putting his fingers on every character, he had to work it out in his mind and practice tell he felt comfortable using the Spectacles.. or prepared clear stones given to him by Moroni...

Read and weep or keep gnashing you teeth Markk, you're poor accounts are actually disputed by the many others who knew JS as honest and trusworthy... nice try, cut and run while you can... chuckle.


Mrs. Palmer’s reminiscences appear in the notebook of Martha Cox that are in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints’ archives and are quoted here from “They Knew the Prophet: Personal Accounts From Over 100 People Who Knew Joseph Smith” by Helen Mae Andrus and Hyrum L. Andrus, published by Covenant Communications in 2002.


This high valuation of Joseph as a laborer was shared by others who knew him. For instance, the slightly younger Joseph Knight Jr. knew Joseph Smith from an early age and reported in his autobiographical sketch that Joseph was “the best hand (my father) ever hired.”

Mrs. Palmer’s reminiscences appear in the notebook of Martha Cox that are in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints’ archives and are quoted here from “They Knew the Prophet: Personal Accounts From Over 100 People Who Knew Joseph Smith” by Helen Mae Andrus and Hyrum L. Andrus, published by Covenant Communications in 2002.


This high valuation of Joseph as a laborer was shared by others who knew him. For instance, the slightly younger Joseph Knight Jr. knew Joseph Smith from an early age and reported in his autobiographical sketch that Joseph was “the best hand (my father) ever hired.”

Actually, it was not called a mob, but a Money Digging company, and included in the company were Joseph Smith Jr. Joseph Smith Sr...and even Hyrum and others in the Smith family. The church admits JS was a money digger.

Yes, he dug for silver and paid as a common laborer, where in your above accusation does it say he used the occult or magic to find it.
First hand accounts good buddy, I gave you the contract Josiah signed and described of the work to be done and the share to be distributed.
Nothing in the signed contract stated anything about hiring JS for finding Gold or Silver... Josiah was the one who fell for the lost silver mine.

“In October, 1825, I hired with an old gentleman by the name of Josiah Stoal [Stowell] …. He took me with the rest of his hands to dig for the silver mine, at which I continued to work for nearly a month, without success …. I prevailed with the old gentleman to cease digging after it. Hence arose the very prevalent story of my having been a money-digger”

Joseph Smith—History 1:56​

More gnashing of teeth, be careful good buddy, dentist are expensive... hmm

What's funny, is you call David Whitmer a liar, unless it is his testimony of the BoM. Are you saying that Hurbert does not deserve the same grace you give to David Whitmer?

Huribert? the one who wanted to wash his hands in the blood of JS? that one? Your losing good buddy.

During these lectures, Hurlbut began to threaten violence against Joseph Smith—according to George A. Smith, Hurlbut “said he would wash his hands in Joseph Smith’s blood.”2 Given recent events in Missouri and growing strains between the Saints and their neighbors in Ohio, Joseph Smith took these threats very seriously. Historian David W. Grua explained that these events prompted “a rare occasion on which [Joseph Smith] took the initiative in a judicial action.”3

On December 21, 1833, Joseph filed a criminal complaint against Hurlbut with the office of John C. Dowen, justice of the peace in Kirtland. About a week later, Justice Dowen issued a warrant for Hurlbut to be arrested and arraigned before Justice William Holbrook of nearby Painesville.4 Hurlbut was brought before Justice Holbrook on January 4, 1834, but the hearing was postponed until January 13. The hearing then lasted three days, during which the testimony of sixteen witnesses testified, most of them providing evidence that Hurlbut’s threats constituted an assault under Ohio law.5

 

[Richard7]

LOL yes...he used the seer stone in translating the book of Mormon...thanks you. I am just amazed you don't read before you paste...or????

Chuckle, I highlighted "eyewitness reported"... and you gave no names... hmm and yes thank you for the source which I listed, look at the names.