LDS prophet on Seer Stone in the Hat

Your church does and your current prophet does, and the church teaches it. Are you a fringe member now? You call a BoM witness a liar, the very same liar your prophet quotes as being a true witness.

Do you hold a current TR? Did you lie to get it?
You can go back from Hinkley and on and all of them pretty much think you and your progressive revisionist and New Mormonism suck.
I can do my own research and know that JS did not dabble in magic, seer stones, occults or any other satantic rituals. If you can prove me wrong, then go find your first hand witnesses.
 
LOL OKay did you read this at all? Thank you.
Sure did you notice the CF's or cited source .... are you capable of actually reading and studying my posts?

Compare #12 Whitmer, Address to All Believers in Christ, 32; compare Historical Introduction to Revelation, 4 Nov. 1830 [D&C 34], in JSP, D1:208–210; and William E. McLellin, “Revelations,” Ensign of Liberty, Aug. 1849, 98–99; on JS apparently not using a seer stone in his work on the “new translation” of the Bible, see, for example, School of the Prophets Salt Lake City Minutes, 14 Jan. 1871; and “Two Days’ Meeting at Brigham City,” The Ogden Junction, 29 June 1874, 2; for accounts claiming that he used a seer stone in translating the Book of Abraham

Big chuckle...
 
Focus... Affidavit from Olivers wife and David's sister and peter Sr daughter...

She gave me a certificate And this is the copy. [Elizabeth Ann (Whitmer) Cowdery, affidavit], Richmond, Ray Co., Mo. Feb 15th 1870 —

"I cheerfully certify that I was familiar with the manner of Joseph Smith's translating the book of Mormon. He translated the most of it at my Father's house. And I often sat by and saw and heard them translate and write for hours together. Joseph never had a curtain drawn between him and his scribe while he was translating. He would place the director in his hat, and then place his [face in his] hat, so as to exclude the light, and then [read] to his scribe the words as they appeared before him."

https://www "dot" fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Book_of_Mormon/Translation/Method/1846-1900

Ralf directions: "Insert a period in place of "dot" on the link.

Ralf Focus again...this is what you assert the director was, the Liahona, or compass.

38 And now, my son, I have somewhat to say concerning the thing which our fathers call a ball, or director—or our fathers called it aLiahona, which is, being interpreted, a compass; and the Lord prepared it.
Absolutely, the director is not the seer stone. Its always been plural as in seer stones... translated by the means of those two stones.
And now he translated them by the means of those two stones. … And whosoever has these things is called seer, after the manner of old times.
13 And now he translated them by the means of those two stones which were fastened into the two rims of a bow.






(Mosiah 28:13–16)

13 And now he translated them by the means of those two stones which were fastened into the two rims of a bow.

14 Now these things were prepared from the beginning, and were handed down from generation to generation, for the purpose of interpreting languages;

15 And they have been kept and preserved by the hand of the Lord, that he should discover to every creature who should possess the land the iniquities and abominations of his people;

16 And whosoever has these things is called aseer, after the manner of old times.
 
You can go back from Hinkley and on and all of them pretty much think you and your progressive revisionist and New Mormonism suck.
I can do my own research and know that JS did not dabble in magic, seer stones, occults or any other satantic rituals. If you can prove me wrong, then go find your first hand witnesses.
Read the book Mormonism and the Magic World View. No matter what you think about the author personally, the research is sound.
 
Read the book Mormonism and the Magic World View. No matter what you think about the author personally, the research is sound.
Early Mormonism and the magic world view
Book by D. Michael Quinn

Excommunicated, not exactly the best source for truth...


Why don't you tell me more about JS and magic, the occult, etc...
 
Chuckle, I highlighted "eyewitness reported"... and you gave no names... hmm and yes thank you for the source which I listed, look at the names.
Yes Ralf, the eyewitnesses did report and testify he used a stone in his hat to translate the BoM. I have given you the names of Emma, Martin, Elizabeth, and David Whitmer dozens of times.
 
You can go back from Hinkley and on and all of them pretty much think you and your progressive revisionist and New Mormonism suck.
I can do my own research and know that JS did not dabble in magic, seer stones, occults or any other satantic rituals. If you can prove me wrong, then go find your first hand witnesses.
Ralf, they have his seer stones. The church teaches that he used the seer stones to translate the BoM. Your prophet and GA's, and institute manual teach it.

The past GA were restricting the truth, or they simply were ignorant of the truth. My guess is a little of both.

Ralf, you have been proven wrong, in regard to the stone in the hat...there is absolutely no debate on that, the LDS church teaches what you deny. Your prophet says, "we know" and demonstrates the process. But I can't make you accept this...especially while in the midst of faith impasse.

You have conceded there is a New Mormonism, the church is hemorrhaging, Joseph had sex with several of his wives...all things you once denied. This is just one more hurdle.
 
Sure did you notice the CF's or cited source .... are you capable of actually reading and studying my posts?

Compare #12 Whitmer, Address to All Believers in Christ, 32; compare Historical Introduction to Revelation, 4 Nov. 1830 [D&C 34], in JSP, D1:208–210; and William E. McLellin, “Revelations,” Ensign of Liberty, Aug. 1849, 98–99; on JS apparently not using a seer stone in his work on the “new translation” of the Bible, see, for example, School of the Prophets Salt Lake City Minutes, 14 Jan. 1871; and “Two Days’ Meeting at Brigham City,” The Ogden Junction, 29 June 1874, 2; for accounts claiming that he used a seer stone in translating the Book of Abraham

Big chuckle...
You read all those sources? You know you did not, you just cut and pasted it. Give me a link to your source...
 
Absolutely, the director is not the seer stone. Its always been plural as in seer stones... translated by the means of those two stones.
And now he translated them by the means of those two stones. … And whosoever has these things is called seer, after the manner of old times.
13 And now he translated them by the means of those two stones which were fastened into the two rims of a bow.






(Mosiah 28:13–16)

13 And now he translated them by the means of those two stones which were fastened into the two rims of a bow.

14 Now these things were prepared from the beginning, and were handed down from generation to generation, for the purpose of interpreting languages;

15 And they have been kept and preserved by the hand of the Lord, that he should discover to every creature who should possess the land the iniquities and abominations of his people;

16 And whosoever has these things is called aseer, after the manner of old times.
Focus, she stated that he put the interpreter in his hat.

"I cheerfully certify that I was familiar with the manner of Joseph Smith's translating the book of Mormon. He translated the most of it at my Father's house. And I often sat by and saw and heard them translate and write for hours together. Joseph never had a curtain drawn between him and his scribe while he was translating. He would place the director in his hat, and then place his [face in his] hat, so as to exclude the light, and then [read] to his scribe the words as they appeared before him."

This account is the same as David's account, Emma's Account, and Martin Harris.
 
Early Mormonism and the magic world view
Book by D. Michael Quinn

Excommunicated, not exactly the best source for truth...


Why don't you tell me more about JS and magic, the occult, etc...
Yet all of the witnesses to the BoM were excommunicated, except the Smiths. Also, men like Bennet and Law, who were basically in the first presidency were also ex'd, along with many other key figures in the early LDS church.

Michael Quinn was a believer until he died and a brilliant historian. I don't agree with everything he wrote nor should you, but your logic is very hypocritical.
 

Ralf, please comment on this video...I have asked you to several times, but you are avoiding the discussion.

President Nelson states that Joseph Smith translates the BoM with the seer stone, in a hat pressed to his face. And give a partial demonstration to the Primary President.
Simple - two Blind fools leading each other, and sharing satanic lies with each other.
 
Yes Ralf, the eyewitnesses did report and testify he used a stone in his hat to translate the BoM. I have given you the names of Emma, Martin, Elizabeth, and David Whitmer dozens of times.
David and
Early Mormonism and the magic world view
Book by D. Michael Quinn

Elizabeth and David never witnessed the translation, if they had they would have seen the gold plates and the gold plates were forbidden by God to be shown to anyone per Moroni's warning... Martin and Emma did, but again if he was using a stone then we know the plates could not have fitted in the hat.... JS had the plates before him at all time during the translation, that's why it's called a translation Markk... period.
Show me a witness that
actually said he translated without the plates?
 
Ralf, they have his seer stones. The church teaches that he used the seer stones to translate the BoM. Your prophet and GA's, and institute manual teach it.
Doesn't make it true, they have the same materials that the progressives use, sketchy, lies, 2nd hand accounts and David Whitmer who was not even a casual observer... he claimed to have seen the plates and then had to go into the woods as JS claimed and see them for the first time.. chuckle.


The past GA were restricting the truth, or they simply were ignorant of the truth. My guess is a little of both.
Well you and the progressives and the New Mormonism agree with you... the Church was hiding the truth they say...


Ralf, you have been proven wrong, in regard to the stone in the hat...there is absolutely no debate on that, the LDS church teaches what you deny. Your prophet says, "we know" and demonstrates the process. But I can't make you accept this...especially while in the midst of faith impasse.

You know that's not true... he never said we know, he said there are many accounts of the method and use of the various devices... You have run out of sources so you're just repeating yourself over and over.


You have conceded there is a New Mormonism, the church is hemorrhaging, Joseph had sex with several of his wives...all things you once denied. This is just one more hurdle.

Obviously we are seeing the New Mormonism, obviously we are loosing many members to faith crisis to a story about a magic rock...
You just don't get it, God has forbidden us to use magic, the occult or anything onto it.... the rock was never prepared by God for translation.
The magic rock was not taken back by Moroni or even shown to the witnesses.... that is critical information members forget...
 
You read all those sources? You know you did not, you just cut and pasted it. Give me a link to your source...
I didn't need to and the same back to you Markk, you can't claim you read all your CF's.... quit with your intentional misinformation dude.
 
Focus, she stated that he put the interpreter in his hat.

"I cheerfully certify that I was familiar with the manner of Joseph Smith's translating the book of Mormon. He translated the most of it at my Father's house. And I often sat by and saw and heard them translate and write for hours together. Joseph never had a curtain drawn between him and his scribe while he was translating. He would place the director in his hat, and then place his [face in his] hat, so as to exclude the light, and then [read] to his scribe the words as they appeared before him."
I). She did not say magic seer stone
2). She did not say how the gold plates could be put into a hat...

Martin Harris:

The two stones set in a bow of silver were about two inches in diameter, perfectly round, and about five-eighths of an inch thick at the centre; but not so thick at the edges where they came into the bow. They were joined by a round bar of silver, about three-eighths of an inch in diameter, and about four inches long, which, with the two stones, would make eight inches. The stones were white, like polished marble, with a few gray streaks. I never dared to look into them by placing them in the hat, because Moses said that “no man could see God and live,” and we could see anything we wished by looking into them; and I could not keep the desire to see God out of my mind. And beside, we had a command to let no man look into them, except by the command of God, lest he should “look aught and perish.”

This account is the same as David's account, Emma's Account, and Martin Harris.
Joseph Knight recalled,

After breakfast Joseph called me in to the other room and he set his foot on the bed and leaned his head on his hand and says, “Well, I am disappointed.” “Well,” say I, “I am sorry.” “Well,” says he, “I am greatly disappointed. It is ten times better than I expected.” Then he went on to tell the length and width and thickness of the plates, and, said he, they appear to be gold. But he seemed to think more of the glasses or the Urim and Thummim than he did of the plates for, says he, “I can see anything. They are marvelous. Now they are written in characters and I want them translated.”
 
Elizabeth and David never witnessed the translation, if they had they would have seen the gold plates and the gold plates were forbidden by God to be shown to anyone per Moroni's warning... Martin and Emma did, but again if he was using a stone then we know the plates could not have fitted in the hat.... JS had the plates before him at all time during the translation, that's why it's called a translation Markk... period.
Show me a witness that
actually said he translated without the plates?

You are just making stuff up ralf. The plates were always covered, Emma never even saw the plates except for when they were covered, she even moved them to clean the house. Not in a barn like you suggested. Emma said she never saw the plates and the other witnesses are all over the place and it is pretty much accepted that they saw them with eyes of understanding.
 
Doesn't make it true, they have the same materials that the progressives use, sketchy, lies, 2nd hand accounts and David Whitmer who was not even a casual observer... he claimed to have seen the plates and then had to go into the woods as JS claimed and see them for the first time.. chuckle.
You are chuckling that the church you pretend to have allegiance to is sketchy...classic ralf, a true keeper. We are witnessing you in a true faith crisis.

Well you and the progressives and the New Mormonism agree with you... the Church was hiding the truth they say...
That makes zero sense ralf. In President Nelson a progressive in your opinion? Do you sustain him?
You know that's not true... he never said we know, he said there are many accounts of the method and use of the various devices... You have run out of sources so you're just repeating yourself over and over.

..."We know that they had a table like this. We know they had the golden plates, covered usually. And Joseph used these: the Urim and Thummim, seer stones, in the hat. And it was easier for him to see the light when he'd take that position... ."
This a paste from the transcript of the video ralf... Click Here Ralf

Obviously we are seeing the New Mormonism, obviously we are loosing many members to faith crisis to a story about a magic rock...
You just don't get it, God has forbidden us to use magic, the occult or anything onto it.... the rock was never prepared by God for translation.
The magic rock was not taken back by Moroni or even shown to the witnesses.... that is critical information members forget...

They are losing members because the church was not honest with them, I was one of them. They know that the older generation will struggle, as you are. You again are not emotional ready to handle the truth.
 
You are just making stuff up ralf. The plates were always covered, Emma never even saw the plates except for when they were covered, she even moved them to clean the house. Not in a barn like you suggested. Emma said she never saw the plates and the other witnesses are all over the place and it is pretty much accepted that they saw them with eyes of understanding.
Again, show me a witness that said he did not use the plates when translating, first hand account. You can't and won't. If I'm making it up then surely you can prove me wrong, so far you're only response to keep labeling me and not showing any evidence or facts when you keep saying for me to wait, will get back to me and you're going to dig deeper... when Markk?

Eyes of understanding? deflection good buddy, start a thread and I will respond.
 
You are chuckling that the church you pretend to have allegiance to is sketchy...classic ralf, a true keeper. We are witnessing you in a true faith crisis.
How does that even relate to historical evidence Markk, the New Mormonism is based on the Church is lying or hiding evidence.
My allegiance has always been to truth no matter where it comes from, you have bought into your favorite revistionist and progressive historians who want to cause faith crisis, even Bushman admitted as much...


Bushman admitted during a 2005 FAIR Mormon conference, “. . . I do not feel that we have to protect Joseph Smith. . . . I take great pleasure in his flaws and in his weaknesses—they make him more appealing. ”Nevertheless, as one honest reviewer of Rough Stone Rolling warned, “Those looking for a faith-promoting view of the prophet’s life may want to look elsewhere . . . .” Excommunicated member John Dehlin promotes Rough Stone Rolling as one of his “must have” resources for members transitioning away from the Church.




That makes zero sense ralf. In President Nelson a progressive in your opinion? Do you sustain him?

Absolutely sustain him, and Hinkley and Brigham Young... did they not have opinions, personal opinions that today we as a church are criticized for... so does a Prophet of God have to be perfect Markk... well according to our critics and anti mormons he has to be... chuckle.


..."We know that they had a table like this. We know they had the golden plates, covered usually. And Joseph used these: the Urim and Thummim, seer stones, in the hat. And it was easier for him to see the light when he'd take that position... ."
This a paste from the transcript of the video ralf... Click Here Ralf

1). "A lot of suggestion on how it was done"... quoted from Pres. Nelson, word for word Markk...
2). "used seer stones (plural) in a hat" .... word for word Markk.... seers stones most likely were the stones from the spectacles.

So folks, check it out for yourself... even Markk admitted he said "the Urim and Thummim, seer stones (plural) chuckle. Markk really does not pay much attention to details...



They are losing members because the church was not honest with them, I was one of them. They know that the older generation will struggle, as you are. You again are not emotional ready to handle the truth.
No, they are losing members because of false narratives by deceitful progressive liars who fool people into a false faith crisis.
Not because the Church lied to them... that is something Markk is making up...

As Elder Christofferson: "the claim of a massive cover-up is “an interesting accusation for a Church that’s publishing 24 volumes of all it can find of Joseph Smith’s papers.”


Joseph Smith, shows that David made up the story of seeing the plates...

Again, he [Moroni] told me, that when I got those plates of which he had spoken—for the time that they should be obtained was not yet fulfilled—I should not show them to any person; neither the breastplate with the Urim and Thummim; only to those to whom I should be commanded to show them; if I did I should be destroyed.
 
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