LDS prophet on Seer Stone in the Hat

[Markk]

Again, show me a witness that said he did not use the plates when translating, first hand account. You can't and won't. If I'm making it up then surely you can prove me wrong, so far you're only response to keep labeling me and not showing any evidence or facts when you keep saying for me to wait, will get back to me and you're going to dig deeper... when Markk?

Question(by Joseph the third): What of the truth of Mormonism?

Answer (by Emma): I know Mormonism to be the truth; and believe the Church to have been established by divine direction. I have complete faith in it. In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the [seer] stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us.
Q. (by Joseph the third) Are you sure that he had the plates at the time you were writing for him?

A. (by Emma)The plates often lay on the table without any attempt at concealment, wrapped in a small linen table cloth, which I had given him to fold them in. I once felt of the plates, as they thus lay on the table, tracing their outline and shape. They seemed to be pliable like thick paper, and would rustle with a metalic sound when the edges were moved by the thumb, as one does sometimes thumb the edges of a book.

 

[Richard7]

Question(by Joseph the third): What of the truth of Mormonism?

Answer (by Emma): I know Mormonism to be the truth; and believe the Church to have been established by divine direction. I have complete faith in it. In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the [seer] stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us.
Q. (by Joseph the third) Are you sure that he had the plates at the time you were writing for him?

A. (by Emma)The plates often lay on the table without any attempt at concealment, wrapped in a small linen table cloth, which I had given him to fold them in. I once felt of the plates, as they thus lay on the table, tracing their outline and shape. They seemed to be pliable like thick paper, and would rustle with a metalic sound when the edges were moved by the thumb, as one does sometimes thumb the edges of a book.

"with the stone in it There folks is the true text and not the added word seer.... other stated that JS put the stones in the hat, what stones you ask, well most likely the stones from the Urim and Thummim just as Emma was trying to emphasize.. so folks why do they feel it necessary that you would not understand the word stone and had to help you by saying, oh yea, he meant the seer stone... oh my! how the revisionist work...

 

[Markk]

"with the stone in it There folks is the true text and not the added word seer.... other stated that JS put the stones in the hat, what stones you ask, well most likely the stones from the Urim and Thummim just as Emma was trying to emphasize.. so folks why do they feel it necessary that you would not understand the word stone and had to help you by saying, oh yea, he meant the seer stone... oh my! how the revisionist work...

What is the Urim and Thummin according to the church Ralf...

By 1833, Joseph Smith and his associates began using the biblical term “Urim and Thummim” to refer to any stones used to receive divine revelations, including both the Nephite interpreters and the single seer stone.
They also teach it is a "fact" that Joseph used both the interpreters, and a single stone...

In fact, historical evidence shows that in addition to the two seer stones known as “interpreters,” Joseph Smith used at least one other seer stone in translating the Book of Mormon, often placing it into a hat in order to block out light. According to Joseph’s contemporaries, he did this in order to better view the words on the stone.

In review these LDS teachings show, in these two short paragraphs, the following:

1. both the interpreters and the stone, any stones, are referred to as the U&T
2. both the interpreters and the one stone are referred to as "seer" stones.
3. they were both used to translate the BoM with Josephs head in his hat.
4. words appeared on the stone
5. all the above is a fact, backed up by accepted evidence.

We can also take from the article, that Joseph used instruments where words appeared on the, and did not actually translated anything.

Also...from the article,

The young Joseph Smith accepted such familiar folk ways of his day, including the idea of using seer stones to view lost or hidden objects. Since the biblical narrative showed God using physical objects to focus people’s faith or communicate spiritually in ancient times, Joseph and others assumed the same for their day. Joseph’s parents, Joseph Smith Sr. and Lucy Mack Smith, affirmed the family’s immersion in this culture and their use of physical objects in this way, and the villagers of Palmyra and Manchester, New York, where the Smiths lived, sought out Joseph to find lost objects before he moved to Pennsylvania in late 1827.

Ralf, another and more proper term for "folks ways" is "Folk Magic," in viewing "lost of hidden" objects. Thus we get the names applied to Joseph, such as, Money digger, peep, Scryer, and glass looker...which the latter he was accused of in the trials.

Click Here Ralf

Ralf, please read the whole article.

 

[Richard7]

What is the Urim and Thummin according to the church Ralf...

By 1833, Joseph Smith and his associates began using the biblical term “Urim and Thummim” to refer to any stones used to receive divine revelations, including both the Nephite interpreters and the single seer stone.
They also teach it is a "fact" that Joseph used both the interpreters, and a single stone...

When are you going to address the issue of placing seer in front of stone when you know it was not there Markk... revisionist and modification is well and alive folks with our The New Mormonism friends.

In fact, historical evidence shows that in addition to the two seer stones known as “interpreters,” Joseph Smith used at least one other seer stone in translating the Book of Mormon, often placing it into a hat in order to block out light. According to Joseph’s contemporaries, he did this in order to better view the words on the stone.

Who's historical evidence, where is you source and who is the witness Markk... you do this all the time as if this is fact.... nice try. This whole exercise is about first hand accounts and you have failed miserably just like above and claim historical evidence... what and who's historical evidence Markk...

In review these LDS teachings show, in these two short paragraphs, the following:

1. both the interpreters and the stone, any stones, are referred to as the U&T
2. both the interpreters and the one stone are referred to as "seer" stones.
3. they were both used to translate the BoM with Josephs head in his hat.
4. words appeared on the stone
5. all the above is a fact, backed up by accepted evidence.

Oliver Cowdery and even Harris admitted Urim and Thummim as I have used their quotes over and over. David Whitmer is not a witness, nor a very good source for I have proven time and time he is sketchy and lacks good memory and also a enemy of JS...


"Oliver Cowdry, one of the three witnesses to the book, testified under oath, that said Smith found with the plates, from which he translated his book, two transparent stones, resembling glass, set in silver bows. That by looking through these, he was able to read in English, the formed Egyptian characters, which were engraved on the plates. During an 1830 trial Oliver Cowdery testified under oath, that “said [Joseph] Smith found with the plates, from which he translated his book, two transparent stones, resembling glass, set in silver bows. That by looking through these, he was able to read in English, the reformed Egyptian characters, which were engraved on the plates." ,




Joseph Smith: "With the records was found a curious instrument which the ancients called “Urim and Thummim,” which consisted of two transparent stones set in the rim of a bow fastened to a breastplate. Through the medium of the Urim and Thummim I translated the record by the gift, and power of God."

Harris: "The two stones set in a bow of silver were about two inches in diameter, perfectly round, and about five-eighths of an inch thick at the centre; but not so thick at the edges where they came into the bow. They were joined by a round bar of silver, about three-eighths of an inch in diameter, and about four inches long, which, with the two stones, would make eight inches. The stones were white, like polished marble, with a few gray streaks."

William Smith: "Explaining the expression as to the stones in the Urim and thummim being set in two rims of a bow he said: A silver bow ran over one stone, under the other, around over that one and under the first in the shape of a horizontal figure 8 much like a pair of spectacles. That they were much too large for Joseph and he could only see through one at a time using sometimes one and sometimes the other. By putting his head in a hat or some dark object it was not necessary to close one eye while looking through the stone with the other. In that way sometimes when his eyes grew tires [tired] he relieved them of the strain. He also said the Urim and Thummim was attached to the breastplate by a rod which was fastened at the outer shoulde[r] edge of the breastplate and to the end of the silver bow. This rod was just the right length so that when the Urim and thummim was removed from before the eyes it woul<d> reac<h> to a pocked [pocket?] on the left side of the breastplate where the instrument was kept when not in use by the Seer."

A statement concerning the Urim and Thummim, recorded in Joseph Knight Sr's journal.
"When it came time for Joseph Smith to obtain the plates. Late that night, after Joseph Smith had returned from his mission, he said to Brother Knight, "It is ten times better than I expected." According to Father Knight, the Prophet decribed the plates, though he "seemed to think more of the glasses or Urim and Thummim than he did of the plates. 'For' says he, 'I can see anything. They are marvelous.'"

Wilford Woodruff recorded in his journal that the Prophet Joseph Smith, showed him the Urim and Thummim.
"December 27, 1841: The Twelve or a part of them spent the day with Joseph the Seer and he unfolded unto them many glorious things of the kingdom of God, the privileges and blessings of the priesthood, etc. I had the privilege of seeing for the first time in my day the Urim and Thummim.

 

[Magdalena]

When are you going to address the issue of placing seer in front of stone when you know it was not there Markk... revisionist and modification is well and alive folks with our The New Mormonism friends.




Who's historical evidence, where is you source and who is the witness Markk... you do this all the time as if this is fact.... nice try. This whole exercise is about first hand accounts and you have failed miserably just like above and claim historical evidence... what and who's historical evidence Markk...




Oliver Cowdery and even Harris admitted Urim and Thummim as I have used their quotes over and over. David Whitmer is not a witness, nor a very good source for I have proven time and time he is sketchy and lacks good memory and also a enemy of JS...


"Oliver Cowdry, one of the three witnesses to the book, testified under oath, that said Smith found with the plates, from which he translated his book, two transparent stones, resembling glass, set in silver bows. That by looking through these, he was able to read in English, the formed Egyptian characters, which were engraved on the plates. During an 1830 trial Oliver Cowdery testified under oath, that “said [Joseph] Smith found with the plates, from which he translated his book, two transparent stones, resembling glass, set in silver bows. That by looking through these, he was able to read in English, the reformed Egyptian characters, which were engraved on the plates." ,




Joseph Smith: "With the records was found a curious instrument which the ancients called “Urim and Thummim,” which consisted of two transparent stones set in the rim of a bow fastened to a breastplate. Through the medium of the Urim and Thummim I translated the record by the gift, and power of God."

Harris: "The two stones set in a bow of silver were about two inches in diameter, perfectly round, and about five-eighths of an inch thick at the centre; but not so thick at the edges where they came into the bow. They were joined by a round bar of silver, about three-eighths of an inch in diameter, and about four inches long, which, with the two stones, would make eight inches. The stones were white, like polished marble, with a few gray streaks."

William Smith: "Explaining the expression as to the stones in the Urim and thummim being set in two rims of a bow he said: A silver bow ran over one stone, under the other, around over that one and under the first in the shape of a horizontal figure 8 much like a pair of spectacles. That they were much too large for Joseph and he could only see through one at a time using sometimes one and sometimes the other. By putting his head in a hat or some dark object it was not necessary to close one eye while looking through the stone with the other. In that way sometimes when his eyes grew tires [tired] he relieved them of the strain. He also said the Urim and Thummim was attached to the breastplate by a rod which was fastened at the outer shoulde[r] edge of the breastplate and to the end of the silver bow. This rod was just the right length so that when the Urim and thummim was removed from before the eyes it woul<d> reac<h> to a pocked [pocket?] on the left side of the breastplate where the instrument was kept when not in use by the Seer."

A statement concerning the Urim and Thummim, recorded in Joseph Knight Sr's journal.
"When it came time for Joseph Smith to obtain the plates. Late that night, after Joseph Smith had returned from his mission, he said to Brother Knight, "It is ten times better than I expected." According to Father Knight, the Prophet decribed the plates, though he "seemed to think more of the glasses or Urim and Thummim than he did of the plates. 'For' says he, 'I can see anything. They are marvelous.'"

Wilford Woodruff recorded in his journal that the Prophet Joseph Smith, showed him the Urim and Thummim.
"December 27, 1841: The Twelve or a part of them spent the day with Joseph the Seer and he unfolded unto them many glorious things of the kingdom of God, the privileges and blessings of the priesthood, etc. I had the privilege of seeing for the first time in my day the Urim and Thummim.

From a speech by Nelson in Pennsylvania in 2015…

“God prepared sacred objects to assist Joseph with the translation. Interpreters—often referred to as the Urim and Thummim—were buried with the gold plates, described as a clear pair of stones bound together with a metal rim. In 1829, Joseph used the interpreters and other seer stones in the translation process.”

Transcript: President Nelson Priesthood Restoration Site Dedication​

President Russell M. Nelson's remarks at the dedication of the Priesthood Restoration Site.

newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org

Your church has stated that the brown stone they have is one of the seer stones Smith used. They call it a seer stone. They don’t question it. There is no confusion. What is your problem?

 

[Richard7]

From a speech by Nelson in Pennsylvania in 2015…

“God prepared sacred objects to assist Joseph with the translation. Interpreters—often referred to as the Urim and Thummim—were buried with the gold plates, described as a clear pair of stones bound together with a metal rim. In 1829, Joseph used the interpreters and other seer stones in the translation process.”

Transcript: President Nelson Priesthood Restoration Site Dedication​

President Russell M. Nelson's remarks at the dedication of the Priesthood Restoration Site.

newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org

Your church has stated that the brown stone they have is one of the seer stones Smith used. They call it a seer stone. They don’t question it. There is no confusion. What is your problem?

1). And from yourMost of what we know of this period of translation comes from eyewitnesses to the process.
same source...

2). Interpreters—often referred to as the Urim and Thummim—were buried with the gold plates, described as a clear pair of stones bound together with a metal rim. In 1829, Joseph used the interpreters and other seer stones (plural) in the translation process.
same source

3). Joseph Smith “I would inform you that I translated, by the gift and power of God.”[9] He later noted that “it was not intended to tell the world all the particulars of the coming forth of the book of Mormon, & also said that it was not expedient for him to relate these things &c.”
same source

4). Though the precise mechanics are unknown to us, we know that it was a spiritual process.
same source.

 

[Markk]

From a speech by Nelson in Pennsylvania in 2015…

“God prepared sacred objects to assist Joseph with the translation. Interpreters—often referred to as the Urim and Thummim—were buried with the gold plates, described as a clear pair of stones bound together with a metal rim. In 1829, Joseph used the interpreters and other seer stones in the translation process.”

Transcript: President Nelson Priesthood Restoration Site Dedication​

President Russell M. Nelson's remarks at the dedication of the Priesthood Restoration Site.

newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org

Your church has stated that the brown stone they have is one of the seer stones Smith used. They call it a seer stone. They don’t question it. There is no confusion. What is your problem?

Also, this from your link...nice find! I hadn't seen this one before.

..." In 1829, Joseph used the interpreters and other seer stones in the translation process... ."

So much for having a prophet???

 

[Richard7]

Also, this from your link...nice find! I hadn't seen this one before.

..." In 1829, Joseph used the interpreters and other seer stones in the translation process... ."

So much for having a prophet???

Correct full text which Magdalena felt was not important... chuckle. I wonder why!

God prepared sacred objects to assist Joseph with the translation. Interpreters—often referred to as the Urim and Thummim—were buried with the gold plates, described as a clear pair of stones bound together with a metal rim. In 1829, Joseph used the interpreters and other seer stones in the translation process. This pattern was not without precedent, as such instruments had been used by prophets throughout scriptural history to translate texts and receive divine communications.[8]


Notice what Magdalena left out between the two sentences she did copy.... Interpreters—often referred to as the Urim and Thummim—were buried with the gold plates, described as a clear pair of stones bound together with a metal rim.
This pattern was not without precedent, as such instruments had been used by prophets throughout scriptural history to translate texts and receive divine communications.
What pattern Markk? the pattern of using instruments which had been used by prophets in the Bible and Book of Mormon..... to do what Markk?
to translate texts and receive divine communications.

Chuckle, the pattern did not mention a stone found in a well or somewhere else, but the instrauments provided by God....

Also Markk did not address this in the same source Magdalena used... hmm

1). And from yourMost of what we know of this period of translation comes from eyewitnesses to the process.
same source...

2). Interpreters—often referred to as the Urim and Thummim—were buried with the gold plates, described as a clear pair of stones bound together with a metal rim. In 1829, Joseph used the interpreters and other seer stones (plural) in the translation process.
same source

3). Joseph Smith “I would inform you that I translated, by the gift and power of God.”[9] He later noted that “it was not intended to tell the world all the particulars of the coming forth of the book of Mormon, & also said that it was not expedient for him to relate these things &c.”
same source

4). Though the precise mechanics are unknown to us, we know that it was a spiritual process.
same source.

 

[Magdalena]

Correct full text which Magdalena felt was not important... chuckle. I wonder why!

God prepared sacred objects to assist Joseph with the translation. Interpreters—often referred to as the Urim and Thummim—were buried with the gold plates, described as a clear pair of stones bound together with a metal rim. In 1829, Joseph used the interpreters and other seer stones in the translation process. This pattern was not without precedent, as such instruments had been used by prophets throughout scriptural history to translate texts and receive divine communications.[8]


Notice what Magdalena left out between the two sentences she did copy.... Interpreters—often referred to as the Urim and Thummim—were buried with the gold plates, described as a clear pair of stones bound together with a metal rim.
This pattern was not without precedent, as such instruments had been used by prophets throughout scriptural history to translate texts and receive divine communications.
What pattern Markk? the pattern of using instruments which had been used by prophets in the Bible and Book of Mormon..... to do what Markk?
to translate texts and receive divine communications.

Chuckle, the pattern did not mention a stone found in a well or somewhere else, but the instrauments provided by God....

Also Markk did not address this in the same source Magdalena used... hmm

1). And from yourMost of what we know of this period of translation comes from eyewitnesses to the process.
same source...

2). Interpreters—often referred to as the Urim and Thummim—were buried with the gold plates, described as a clear pair of stones bound together with a metal rim. In 1829, Joseph used the interpreters and other seer stones (plural) in the translation process.
same source

3). Joseph Smith “I would inform you that I translated, by the gift and power of God.”[9] He later noted that “it was not intended to tell the world all the particulars of the coming forth of the book of Mormon, & also said that it was not expedient for him to relate these things &c.”
same source

4). Though the precise mechanics are unknown to us, we know that it was a spiritual process.
same source.

You pick and choose which parts you want to believe, out of even what your church claims is true. It’s hard to know what your agenda is for that.

 

[Magdalena]

1). And from yourMost of what we know of this period of translation comes from eyewitnesses to the process.
same source...

2). Interpreters—often referred to as the Urim and Thummim—were buried with the gold plates, described as a clear pair of stones bound together with a metal rim. In 1829, Joseph used the interpreters and other seer stones (plural) in the translation process.
same source

3). Joseph Smith “I would inform you that I translated, by the gift and power of God.”[9] He later noted that “it was not intended to tell the world all the particulars of the coming forth of the book of Mormon, & also said that it was not expedient for him to relate these things &c.”
same source

4). Though the precise mechanics are unknown to us, we know that it was a spiritual process.
same source.

It pretty much negates all of your arguments.

 

[Richard7]

It pretty much negates all of your arguments.

How so? you leave a comment but don't go deeper in the how... just a remark by which to me is so irrelevant... hmm

 

[Markk]

Correct full text which Magdalena felt was not important... chuckle. I wonder why!

God prepared sacred objects to assist Joseph with the translation. Interpreters—often referred to as the Urim and Thummim—were buried with the gold plates, described as a clear pair of stones bound together with a metal rim. In 1829, Joseph used the interpreters and other seer stones in the translation process. This pattern was not without precedent, as such instruments had been used by prophets throughout scriptural history to translate texts and receive divine communications.[8]

LOL...so as I have been saying for a month or so, the church teaches that the interpreters and "other" seer stones (plural), were used in the translation process. Stop, focus, and read what you pasted.

Notice what Magdalena left out between the two sentences she did copy.... Interpreters—often referred to as the Urim and Thummim—were buried with the gold plates, described as a clear pair of stones bound together with a metal rim.
This pattern was not without precedent, as such instruments had been used by prophets throughout scriptural history to translate texts and receive divine communications.
What pattern Markk? the pattern of using instruments which had been used by prophets in the Bible and Book of Mormon..... to do what Markk?
to translate texts and receive divine communications.

Focus...from the essay...

Apparently for convenience, Joseph often translated with the single seer stone rather than the two stones bound together to form the interpreters. These two instruments—the interpreters and the seer stone—were apparently interchangeable and worked in much the same way such that, in the course of time, Joseph Smith and his associates often used the term “Urim and Thummim” to refer to the single stone as well as the interpreters.

The pattern...is that the church teaches that the interpreters, and seer stone were used interchangeable for the translation of the BoM.

 

[Richard7]

LOL...so as I have been saying for a month or so, the church teaches that the interpreters and "other" seer stones (plural), were used in the translation process. Stop, focus, and read what you pasted.

There you go again with misstatements... now dig deeper and show how even David Whitmere and other second hand accounts ever stated seer stones (plural) they all use the term seer stone (singular) Emma stated seer stones, Pres. Nelson said Urim and Thumim seer stones,

Joseph Knight:

After breakfast Joseph called me into the other room, set his foot on the bed, and leaned his head on his hand and said, "Well I am disappointed."

"Well, I said, "I am sorry."

"Well, he said, "I am greatly disappointed. It is ten times better than I expected."

Then he went on to tell the length and width and thickness of the plates and, said he, they appear to be gold. But, he seemed to think more of the glasses or the Urim and Thummim than he did of the plate for, said he, "I can see anything. They are marvelous."[15]

Focus...from the essay...

Apparently for convenience, Joseph often translated with the single seer stone rather than the two stones bound together to form the interpreters. These two instruments—the interpreters and the seer stone—were apparently interchangeable and worked in much the same way such that, in the course of time, Joseph Smith and his associates often used the term “Urim and Thummim” to refer to the single stone as well as the interpreters.

The pattern...is that the church teaches that the interpreters, and seer stone were used interchangeable for the translation of the BoM.

Chuckle, also from the Essays:
Although commentators differ on the nature of the instrument, several ancient sources state that the instrument involved stones that lit up or were divinely illumined.22 Latter-day Saints later understood the term “Urim and Thummim” to refer exclusively to the interpreters. Joseph Smith and others, however, seem to have understood the term more as a descriptive category of instruments for obtaining divine revelations and less as the name of a specific instrument.

Joseph Smith: “I would inform you that I translated [the book], by the gift and power of God.” When pressed for specifics about the process of translation, Joseph repeated on several occasions that it had been done “by the gift and power of God”24 and once added, “It was not intended to tell the world all the particulars of the coming forth of the book of Mormon.”
Essays Markk

Nevertheless, the scribes and others who observed the translation left numerous accounts that give insight into the process. Some accounts indicate that Joseph studied the characters on the plates. Most of the accounts speak of Joseph’s use of the Urim and Thummim (either the interpreters or the seer stone), and many accounts refer to his use of a single stone. According to these accounts, Joseph placed either the interpreters or the seer stone in a hat, pressed his face into the hat to block out extraneous light, and read aloud the English words that appeared on the instrument.26 The process as described brings to mind a passage from the Book of Mormon that speaks of God preparing “a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light.”27
Essays Markk...


Numerous Accounts Markk.

1). Although commentators differ on the nature of the instrument, several ancient sources state that the instrument involved stones that lit up or were divinely illumined.
No way a seer stone of a rock or stone, chocolate colored could ever light up... notice the description in my other post showed that they were like glass, transparent and white in color. Why would God allow JS to find a stone that was not prepared for him to be used like magic... chuckle.

2). Most of the accounts speak of Joseph’s use of the Urim and Thummim
3). Joseph placed either the interpreters or the seer stone in a hat, pressed his face into the hat to block out extraneous light, and read aloud the English words that appeared on the instrument.

The interpreters would not fit in a hat, yet the stones from the spectacles would and again your so naive to think a solid rock could ever be use to translate, in all other accounts given of the Urim and thummim we see that they were glass, clear and white, also prepared by God to translate.... to think God would bury a stone in a well, unprepared by Him and allow JS to use such a devise which some accounts, Rough Stone Rolling, Mormonism Unveiled and Arrington and The New Mormonism Revisionist, progressives called a magic seer stone. Richard Bushman went as far to say it was okay and this was only a preparatory learning experience for JS as he progressed into a Prophet... chuckle

 

[Markk]

There you go again with misstatements... now dig deeper and show how even David Whitmere and other second hand accounts ever stated seer stones (plural) they all use the term seer stone (singular) Emma stated seer stones, Pres. Nelson said Urim and Thumim seer stones,

Focus..."what the church teaches"...."what the church teaches."

Joseph Smith and his scribes wrote of two instruments used in translating the Book of Mormon. According to witnesses of the translation, when Joseph looked into the instruments, the words of scripture appeared in English. One instrument, called in the Book of Mormon the “interpreters,” is better known to Latter-day Saints today as the “Urim and Thummim.” Joseph found the interpreters buried in the hill with the plates. 16 Those who saw the interpreters described them as a clear pair of stones bound together with a metal rim. The Book of Mormon referred to this instrument, together with its breastplate, as a device “kept and preserved by the hand of the Lord” and “handed down from generation to generation, for the purpose of interpreting languages.” 17

The other instrument, which Joseph Smith discovered in the ground years before he retrieved the gold plates, was a small oval stone, or “seer stone.” 18 As a young man during the 1820s, Joseph Smith, like others in his day, used a seer stone to look for lost objects and buried treasure. 19 As Joseph grew to understand his prophetic calling, he learned that he could use this stone for the higher purpose of translating scripture. 20

Apparently for convenience, Joseph often translated with the single seer stone rather than the two stones bound together to form the interpreters. These two instruments—the interpreters and the seer stone—were apparently interchangeable and worked in much the same way such that, in the course of time, Joseph Smith and his associates often used the term “Urim and Thummim” to refer to the single stone as well as the interpreters.

Ralf, how was the BoM translated if not as what the church clearly teaches above, and what instruments were used and in what fashion?

 

[Richard7]

Focus..."what the church teaches"...."what the church teaches."

Joseph Smith and his scribes wrote of two instruments used in translating the Book of Mormon. According to witnesses of the translation, when Joseph looked into the instruments, the words of scripture appeared in English. One instrument, called in the Book of Mormon the “interpreters,” is better known to Latter-day Saints today as the “Urim and Thummim.” Joseph found the interpreters buried in the hill with the plates. 16 Those who saw the interpreters described them as a clear pair of stones bound together with a metal rim. The Book of Mormon referred to this instrument, together with its breastplate, as a device “kept and preserved by the hand of the Lord” and “handed down from generation to generation, for the purpose of interpreting languages.” 17

Interpreters!
In the fall of 1830, Cowdery described the interpreters as “two transparent stones in the form of spectacles thro which the translator looked on the engraving & afterwards put his face into a hat & the interpretation then flowed into his mind.”[20] In 1831 Cowdery testified under oath that Joseph Smith “found with the plates, from which he translated the book, two transparent stones, resembling glass, set in silver bows” and “that by looking at these, he was able to read in English, the reformed Egyptian characters, which were engraven on the plates.”[21] One of Cowdery’s earliest converts in Ohio wrote, “In the last part of October, 1830, four men appeared here . . . with a book, which they said contained what was engraven on gold plates found . . . about three years ago by a man named Joseph Smith Jr. who had translated it by looking into a stone or two stones, when put into a dark place, which stones he said were found in the box with the plates.”[22] He explained that Cowdery had said, “While [Joseph] looked through the stone spectacles another sat by and wrote what he told them.”[23] These statements can be compared with a newspaper article, not associated with Oliver Cowdery but published just a few weeks after the translation work was finished in June 1829. In this article, Jonathan Hadley, one of the printers Joseph Smith approached in Palmyra to print the Book of Mormon, claimed that the “very illiterate” Joseph told him the plates were found with a “huge pair of Spectacles,” and that “By placing the Spectacles in a hat, and looking into it, Smith could (he said so, at least,) interpret these characters.”[24]

The other instrument, which Joseph Smith discovered in the ground years before he retrieved the gold plates, was a small oval stone, or “seer stone.” 18 As a young man during the 1820s, Joseph Smith, like others in his day, used a seer stone to look for lost objects and buried treasure. 19 As Joseph grew to understand his prophetic calling, he learned that he could use this stone for the higher purpose of translating scripture. 20

Apparently for convenience, Joseph often translated with the single seer stone rather than the two stones bound together to form the interpreters. These two instruments—the interpreters and the seer stone—were apparently interchangeable and worked in much the same way such that, in the course of time, Joseph Smith and his associates often used the term “Urim and Thummim” to refer to the single stone as well as the interpreters.

Ralf, how was the BoM translated if not as what the church clearly teaches above, and what instruments were used and in what fashion?

Glad you said translated, the correct word is translated, not by reading it separated from the plates.... he only translated when the plates were with him.

Three and the Eight Witnesses, each of whom spoke of having various experiences touching, hefting, feeling, and seeing the plates. The text of the Book of Mormon is abnormally self-aware of the plates; it focuses again and again on the provenance of and sources by which Mormon and Moroni compiled the gold plates. It essentially tracks the gold plates and their source material from person to person until the plates end up in the hands of Joseph Smith. The Book of Mormon even prophesies of Joseph’s possession and translation of the record. Therefore, the physical plates fulfill thousands of years of preparation, and the witnesses provide authentication of the historicity of the plates. The plates were therefore indispensable for validating the ancient nature of the Book of Mormon.

 

[Magdalena]

Interpreters!
In the fall of 1830, Cowdery described the interpreters as “two transparent stones in the form of spectacles thro which the translator looked on the engraving & afterwards put his face into a hat & the interpretation then flowed into his mind.”[20] In 1831 Cowdery testified under oath that Joseph Smith “found with the plates, from which he translated the book, two transparent stones, resembling glass, set in silver bows” and “that by looking at these, he was able to read in English, the reformed Egyptian characters, which were engraven on the plates.”[21] One of Cowdery’s earliest converts in Ohio wrote, “In the last part of October, 1830, four men appeared here . . . with a book, which they said contained what was engraven on gold plates found . . . about three years ago by a man named Joseph Smith Jr. who had translated it by looking into a stone or two stones, when put into a dark place, which stones he said were found in the box with the plates.”[22] He explained that Cowdery had said, “While [Joseph] looked through the stone spectacles another sat by and wrote what he told them.”[23] These statements can be compared with a newspaper article, not associated with Oliver Cowdery but published just a few weeks after the translation work was finished in June 1829. In this article, Jonathan Hadley, one of the printers Joseph Smith approached in Palmyra to print the Book of Mormon, claimed that the “very illiterate” Joseph told him the plates were found with a “huge pair of Spectacles,” and that “By placing the Spectacles in a hat, and looking into it, Smith could (he said so, at least,) interpret these characters.”[24]


Glad you said translated, the correct word is translated, not by reading it separated from the plates.... he only translated when the plates were with him.

Three and the Eight Witnesses, each of whom spoke of having various experiences touching, hefting, feeling, and seeing the plates. The text of the Book of Mormon is abnormally self-aware of the plates; it focuses again and again on the provenance of and sources by which Mormon and Moroni compiled the gold plates. It essentially tracks the gold plates and their source material from person to person until the plates end up in the hands of Joseph Smith. The Book of Mormon even prophesies of Joseph’s possession and translation of the record. Therefore, the physical plates fulfill thousands of years of preparation, and the witnesses provide authentication of the historicity of the plates. The plates were therefore indispensable for validating the ancient nature of the Book of Mormon.

Where did you copy all of that from?

 

[Richard7]

Where did you copy all of that from?

The Spectacles, the Stone, the Hat, and the Book: A Twenty-first Century Believer’s View of the Book of Mormon Translation

This essay seeks to examine the Book of Mormon translation method from the perspective of a regular, nonscholarly, believing member in the twenty-first century, by taking into account both what is learned in Church and what can be learned from historical records that are now easily available. What d

journal.interpreterfoundation.org

 

[Markk]

Where did you copy all of that from?

Ralf wrote ...The Spectacles, the Stone, the Hat, and the Book: A Twenty-first Century Believer’s View of the Book of Mormon Translation​

This essay seeks to examine the Book of Mormon translation method from the perspective of a regular, nonscholarly, believing member in the twenty-first century, by taking into account both what is learned in Church and what can be learned from historical records that are now easily available. What d

journal.interpreterfoundation.org

Ralf...the conclusion of this paper reads in part...focus and read it slowly please.


..."The use of the seer stone should be of no particular surprise or concern to any Latter-day Saint who accepts that Joseph received a set of sacred stones that were consecrated for the purpose of receiving revelation and translation. After all, what precisely is the difference between using one seer stone versus another? One can assume that Joseph continued to use the Nephite interpreters, since they were the instrument that was consecrated specifically for the purpose of translation. However, it is entirely reasonable to assume that God could consecrate any other instrument that He wished to serve that purpose as well.

It is clear from the contemporary accounts that the object placed within the hat could either be the spectacles or the seer [Page 188]stone. Both were classified by the early Latter-day Saints as “Urim and Thummim.” It is therefore safe to say that, regardless of which actual instrument Joseph was using at any particular point in time, he did indeed translate the entire Book of Mormon using the Urim and Thummim.

The primary issue that seems to concern some is the idea that Joseph translated in the open, in full view of others, by placing the instrument of translation in a hat and dictating text without looking directly at the plates. Why would the Lord allow Joseph to alter the method used to translate? The 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon contains over 580 pages, which were dictated without repetition at a rate of seven to eleven-and-a-half pages per day.111 This is a significant accomplishment, regardless of the precise method used during the translation. A reasonable conclusion is that by allowing Joseph to dictate the entire Book of Mormon text in full view of witnesses without the process being obscured in any way, it significantly strengthens the position that Joseph was indeed receiving revelation rather than consulting other materials... ."

Then in other threads, and posts you deny this...you linked Rodney Meldrum of all people.

 

[Markk]

Where did you copy all of that from?

He did not tell you the truth, he copied it from another paper, go back and click on one of the hyperlinks and scroll up to the top of the page. The conclusion to the paper reads...

Conclusion

Pulling together the accounts from witnesses and our understanding of the sacred instruments used for translation, we can now understand three components of Joseph Smith’s translation process. He explained that he translated (1) by the gift and power of God (like Mosiah), (2) by way of an instrument (the seer stones), (3) which functioned through “sight” (as D&C 3 explained). Some of Joseph’s close associates also elaborated upon what he revealed—most of whom spoke of Joseph’s use of the term “Urim and Thummim” (either the spectacles or the seer stone),[49] while a few refer to his use of a single stone[50] placed into a hat used to shield his eyes from extraneous light. Given the different experiences of each of Joseph’s scribes discussed above, it seems possible that Joseph Smith was not particular about using a single, consistent procedure. He seems to have alternated between one stone and two. In addition, as Joseph looked into his hat at the seer stones, he left the gold plates covered on the table or locked in a box.

Finally, though an examination of the translation relying on witness statements alone could be criticized as limited, it provides a historical foundation for others to expand upon. Literary theory, historical cognition studies, critical text work, and approaches from psychology will continue to produce interesting and thought-provoking theories and analyses, but the bedrock of their studies should be a well-documented religious experience given in the words of those who experienced it.

This is consistent with what the church teaches...that he used the interpreters and the seer stone interchangeably. This article also makes a very important point, that because he translated the BoM while looking in his hat, there was no need to even have the plates present, in that they were either covered, or locked away out of sight.

He has painted himself into a corner, in that by rejecting historians like Bushman, Quinn, Vogel and others, he rejects the LDS church, FAIR, The Neal Maxwell Institute, BYU, The Interpreter...and long-standing LDS Apologists like Brant Gardner, Dan Peterson and virtually almost all BYU "Scholars" on the subject.

On the other hand, if he puts his lot in with outliers like Stoddard and Meldrum...then he by default rejects the prophets and official church teachings on this subject.

But the reality it's hard to figure out what his position is and who he is standing besides, because he is that confused.

 

[Markk]

There you go again with misstatements... now dig deeper and show how even David Whitmere and other second hand accounts ever stated seer stones (plural) they all use the term seer stone (singular) Emma stated seer stones, Pres. Nelson said Urim and Thumim seer stones,

HUH? Read what you just wrote, it makes no sense.

Emma, speaks of the seer stones in both a singular and plural form...because Joseph had several stones. The whites stone, the brown stone, and the large stone. Grant Palmer even speaks of the larger stone in that he was invited to the 1st Presidents Vault and was shown it. Brigham Young spoke of three stones that Emma had.

Ralf Click Here

President Nelson speaks, of the interpreters and the stone together, in that they are both instruments in which the book of Mormon was translated and both seer stones. He also speaks of one stone in the hat...very clearly agreeing with David Whitmer in his firsthand account.

“Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.” (David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, Richmond, Mo.: n.p., 1887, p. 12.)

Click Here Ralf

What is your position Ralf...you are all over the place.