Legally but not Spiritually

PeanutGallery

Active member
“Homosexual people have the right to be in a family. They are children of God,” Francis said. “You can’t kick someone out of a family, nor make their life miserable for this. What we have to have is a civil union law; that way they are legally covered.”
link
Definitely not spiritually covered; no need for repentance, nor crying out to God for deliverance.
 

illini1959

Member
Unless they're born again, they are not children of God (I know you know that) so there's no "family" to kick them out of.

If they are born again: Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 2 Cor 5:17

You don't keep being a slave to the sin Jesus died to save you from.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
link
Definitely not spiritually covered; no need for repentance, nor crying out to God for deliverance.
All human beings are children of God in a general sense (though obviously not adoptive children through Christ). In that small snippet from a long documentary, the pope is calling on greater understanding and just treatment of people with homosexual attractions; that they should not be alienated by family members or treated cruelly.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
All human beings are children of God in a general sense (though obviously not adoptive children through Christ). In that small snippet from a long documentary, the pope is calling on greater understanding and just treatment of people with homosexual attractions; that they should not be alienated by family members or treated cruelly.
Catholic teaching holds that gay people must be treated with dignity and respect but that homosexual acts are “intrinsically disordered.” A 2003 document from the Vatican’s doctrine office stated the church’s respect for gay people “cannot lead in any way to approval of homosexual behavior or to legal recognition of homosexual unions.”

Doing so, the Vatican reasoned, would not only condone “deviant behavior,” but create an equivalence to marriage, which the church holds is an indissoluble union between man and woman.

That document was signed by the then-prefect of the office, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the future Pope Benedict XVI and Francis’ predecessor
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"What we have to have is a civil union law; that way they are legally covered.”"
vs
Vatican’s doctrine office stated the church’s respect for gay people “cannot lead in any way to approval of homosexual behavior or to legal recognition of homosexual unions.”
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
Catholic teaching holds that gay people must be treated with dignity and respect but that homosexual acts are “intrinsically disordered.” A 2003 document from the Vatican’s doctrine office stated the church’s respect for gay people “cannot lead in any way to approval of homosexual behavior or to legal recognition of homosexual unions.”

Doing so, the Vatican reasoned, would not only condone “deviant behavior,” but create an equivalence to marriage, which the church holds is an indissoluble union between man and woman.

That document was signed by the then-prefect of the office, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the future Pope Benedict XVI and Francis’ predecessor
---------------------
"What we have to have is a civil union law; that way they are legally covered.”"
vs
Vatican’s doctrine office stated the church’s respect for gay people “cannot lead in any way to approval of homosexual behavior or to legal recognition of homosexual unions.”
Pope Francis doesn't say: "What we have to have is a civil union law; that way they are legally covered" but "What we have to have is a law of civil co-existence/conviviality; that way they are legally covered". If he meant "civil union" law (i.e., legally recognised same-sex civil partnerships) he would have said "unión civil" (its equivalent in Spanish) not what he did say. And taking it as civil co-existence/conviviality actually fits better with the rest of what he said about not making life miserable for people with same-sex attraction, alienating them or treating them cruelly.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
Pope Francis doesn't say: "What we have to have is a civil union law; that way they are legally covered" but "What we have to have is a law of civil co-existence/conviviality; that way they are legally covered". If he meant "civil union" law (i.e., legally recognised same-sex civil partnerships) he would have said "unión civil" (its equivalent in Spanish) not what he did say. And taking it as civil co-existence/conviviality actually fits better with the rest of what he said about not making life miserable for people with same-sex attraction, alienating them or treating them cruelly.

There are many Cardinals who do not share your "interpretation" of what the Pope meant

Here is a letter penned by Raymond Leo Cardinal Burke
Telling you that your Pope gave approval for homosexual unions in direct contradiction to Scripture and Tradition

Library : Statement on the Declarations of Pope Francis Regarding Civil Unions

Statement on the Declarations of Pope Francis Regarding Civil Unions Pope Francis’ support for civil-union legislation is “devoid of any magisterial weight,” but are “simply private opinions,” Cardinal Raymond Burke has written on his personal web site on October 22, 2020. After carefully...
www.catholicculture.org

www.catholicculture.org

Cardinals Vigano and Muller has issued similar statements
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
There are many Cardinals who do not share your "interpretation" of what the Pope meant

Here is a letter penned by Raymond Leo Cardinal Burke
Telling you that your Pope gave approval for homosexual unions in direct contradiction to Scripture and Tradition

Library : Statement on the Declarations of Pope Francis Regarding Civil Unions

Statement on the Declarations of Pope Francis Regarding Civil Unions Pope Francis’ support for civil-union legislation is “devoid of any magisterial weight,” but are “simply private opinions,” Cardinal Raymond Burke has written on his personal web site on October 22, 2020. After carefully...
www.catholicculture.org

www.catholicculture.org

Cardinals Vigano and Muller has issued similar statements
And if they are correct in their interpretation, then it is just the pope's private opinion. However, I'd like to see some clarity from the Vatican so hopefully some will be forthcoming. My reason for thinking he is not saying "civil unions" is (a) he doesn't use the specific term (whereas if he meant it, why not just say that?) and (b) it doesn't fit the rest of the context very well.
 

PeanutGallery

Active member
All human beings are children of God ...
All blood washed redeemed sinners are children of God; until then, all are children of disobedience.

... In that small snippet from a long documentary, the pope is calling on greater understanding and just treatment of people with homosexual attractions; that they should not be alienated by family members or treated cruelly.
All the while, ignoring repentance and calling out to God for deliverance.
 

balshan

Well-known member
Catholic teaching holds that gay people must be treated with dignity and respect but that homosexual acts are “intrinsically disordered.” A 2003 document from the Vatican’s doctrine office stated the church’s respect for gay people “cannot lead in any way to approval of homosexual behavior or to legal recognition of homosexual unions.”

Doing so, the Vatican reasoned, would not only condone “deviant behavior,” but create an equivalence to marriage, which the church holds is an indissoluble union between man and woman.

That document was signed by the then-prefect of the office, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the future Pope Benedict XVI and Francis’ predecessor
---------------------
"What we have to have is a civil union law; that way they are legally covered.”"
vs
Vatican’s doctrine office stated the church’s respect for gay people “cannot lead in any way to approval of homosexual behavior or to legal recognition of homosexual unions.”
Well that would be nothing new. It has condoned deviant behaviour with its abusive priests. It even covered up their behaviour and tolerated such behaviour by moving them from one parish to another. They have already shown that it is open to the dissolving of marriage by their easy divorces/annulments.
 

mica

Well-known member
Well that would be nothing new. It has condoned deviant behaviour with its abusive priests. It even covered up their behaviour and tolerated such behaviour by moving them from one parish to another. They have already shown that it is open to the dissolving of marriage by their easy divorces/annulments.
That's sure the truth! what they often claim with their mouth isn't what they believe or the reality of how they live.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
All blood washed redeemed sinners are children of God; until then, all are children of disobedience.


All the while, ignoring repentance and calling out to God for deliverance.
So, how is Adam a son of God and how are peacemakers children of God? Adam didn't even know about Jesus and peacemakers need not even be Christian.
 

balshan

Well-known member
What is the context of peacemakers; preaching the gospel of peace and repentance toward God.
Not a word from Francis.
I am finding it amusing that RCs are talking about peacemakers, when it backed some of the worse violent actions against other humans throughout history. Look at the institution history of involvement in history eg crusades, inquisitions, scandals, abuse, conquering of other nations by RC nations - Spain as an example, anti Semitism. The history of the institution throughout the ages has been one of violence.
 

balshan

Well-known member
There is Ram and another called Thersea. also another who name starts with A (I have forgotten his name, sorry). I think. It is a shame that some have not returned after the crash. Let us hope they return.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
What is the context of peacemakers; preaching the gospel of peace and repentance toward God.
Not a word from Francis.
The context of peacemakers isn't about preaching the gospel and repentance toward God. It's part of the beatitudes, which are not all about evangelisation but down-to-earth good living. The meek, merciful and pure in heart are all people (along with peacemakers) who reflect God through their virtue, even if they don't know Him in Christ.
 
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