Atemi
Well-known member
Do the dead speak to you, romish?
Let me name the RC ways of salvation
- Thread starter balshan
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Do the dead speak to you, romish?
romishpopishorganist
Well-known member
No---but---doesn't the Bible forbid that?
Why would I attempt to contact the dead when the Bible forbids that?
Atemi
Well-known member
Bonnie
Super Member
You don't know what the problem is with calling Mary the "ONLY" hope for sinners? What is Jesus, so much chopped liver?
You have used this argument before and it won't wash. We hope in CHRIST, not Mary. And if we want to see a great example of redemption, we need look no farther than St. Paul, who went from a blaspheming persecutor of the early church, to one of the greatest Christians who ever lived.
Yes! Because it contradicts Scripture! Jesus has told us that HE is the gate/door--NO ONE ELSE. THAT is what is wrong with calling Mary the "gate of heaven". Why must Catholics believe made-up stuff, over what is actually in the Bible?
Catholics will do anything to elevate Mary and diminish Christ and what HE had done for us and done perfectly and completely.
False. Nothing to do with "nominalism" but what is actually in the Bible. Jesus and Jesus alone is the CAUSE of our salvation, for in Him we have salvation and no one else--"For there is NO OTHER NAME UNDER HEAVEN given among men, by which we MUST be saved." And Peter meant Jesus--NOT Mary!
Once again, from 1 Peter:
That is not what "cause of our salvation" means. It means Mary in Catholicism but Jesus to non-Catholics.
That is false. We can love the saints without praying to them for help and comfort and salvation, by honoring and respecting their faith and teaching about them. We don't need to pray to them as one would to God!
It is praying to the dead saints as one would to God that we take exception to. We don't need to talk to them, or ask them for anything, when we can go directly to Jesus Christ for our needs.
Do you pray to people on earth that you love, as you would to God, pleading with them for salvation? OR do you think praying to saints dead in the Lord is the ONLY way to show honor to them? Is that it?
Catholics pray to them because you apparently don't trust Jesus enough to go directly to HIM, even though He has bade us to do so. No, gotta get the dead saints to soften Him up first.
Unlike Catholics, I don't go beyond what it written but pray ONLY to God in Christ Jesus, as the Apostles did. I do not consult the dead on behalf of the living.
Praying FOR each other is Biblical; praying TO each other is NOT.
it isn't nonsense.
Sorry, but yes it is. Jesus isn't good enough, loving enough, kind enough for Catholics to pray directly to--they must first get the dead saints to "soften Him up". Yet Jesus Himself bids us to come to Him and He will give us rest for our souls. HE will--dead saints cannot.
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romishpopishorganist
Well-known member
Jesus is the salvation of sinners, not their hope. We can't be Jesus. We cannot hope for what Jesus has. Jesus is God. We can never be God. Satan desired that. Christians do not. Jesus is also not redeemed. If Jesus is our hope--then--what--are we supposed to hope not to be redeemed like He is? Mary is redeemed, and perfectly so. That we CAN have, and thus---why Mary is our only hope.
Evidently you remember the argument---but never really get around to explaining what is wrong with it.
Any saint or apostle is an example of redemption. Mary, however is an example of redemption in its perfection and fullness.
Becasue Mary is the Gate of Heaven. That is why we must believe it. We believe it becasue it is true. Jesus is the gateway to the Father, Mary the gateway to Christ.
More like Protestants will do anything to deny and diminish Mary's role in redemption, thus diminishing Christ Himself.
So Jesus did not use Mary to come into the world?
Did Jesus use Mary to come into the world or not? Mary is a SECONDARY cause, not the ULTIMATE cause. Paul is speaking of the ULTIMATE Cause of our salvation.
Again----we love the saints but never speak to them. How is that love? Do you love people you do not speak to?
We do not pray to the saints as we would God. We offer the Mass to God. We never offer Mass to a saint.
Yes I ask people to pray for me, yes I speak to them. There are many ways in Catholicism to honor the saints. The POINT which you missed, surprise, surprise, is that when you love someone, you tend to speak to them.
Here we go again. I answered this already.
No one "consults" the saints.
Praying for each other is biblical, as well as speaking to them.
Sorry. I misspoke. It is absurd and ridiculous.
Already answered. You write the above as if I didn't answer this already.
Atemi
Well-known member
Do the dead speak to you, romish?
romishpopishorganist
Well-known member
No. Like I said--that is forbidden by the Bible.
David1701
Well-known member
1 Cor. 15:19-21 (A.V.)
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.f
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
Col. 1:25-28 (A.V.)
25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
1 Thess. 1:3 (A.V.) Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
1 Tim. 1:1 (Webster) Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, who is our hope;
As you can see, the Lord Jesus Christ is our hope, not Mary.
Bonnie never suggested we could become Jesus another bearing false witness.
But Jesus is the only hope for sinners. Hope means have confidence in, trust in and Jesus is the one sinners can have confidence in and trust in as shown by the verses below.
1 Tim 1:15
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.
Rom 5:8
But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Mark 2:17
And when Jesus heard it, he said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
Bonnie
Super Member
Oh, yes He is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He is BOTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nonsense! We can hope for eternal life in heaven with a glorified body such as He has now, that we will have one day at the Resurrection.
This is a lot of gobbeltygook to justify praying to Mary as the "only hope for sinners" rendering her Son superfuous....who needs Jesus when one has His mother?
THIS is why Jesus is our ONLY hope!
3 Reasons Jesus Is Our Only Hope
The Advent story is a hope story because it chronicles the coming to earth of the One who is hope, Jesus.
www.crossway.org
Show us where the Bible says we are to hope in a dead saint. But again, if you want an example of someone who was redeemed from sin, look no farther than St. Paul, who went from a murderous, blaspheming persecutor of the early church, to its greatest missionary. Half the NT is made up of HIS writings!
So, look to Paul from an example of what redemption looks like, for Jesus is the ONLY HOPE FOR SINNERS. NO ONE ELSE. For "there is NO OTHER NAME under heaven given among men by which we MUST be saved!" And Peter meant Jesus Christ!
Yes, I did explain and in great detail, complete with bible verses. But I have no idea where that is now, and was probably on the last boards, which are no more.
But we don't HOPE in examples; we HOPE in the Son of the Living God, Who alone saves us and saves us completely!
MORE baloney! I just showed you the Bible verse where Jesus claims that HE IS THE GATE OF HEAVEN. Yet, you reject what is actually in the Bible, in favor of a fantasy promulgated by your church--proof that Catholics honor their church and its many heterodoxical teachings more than the actual written word of God. Sad.
Bullfeathers! Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus or the Apostles claim Mary is the "gateway" to Christ. In fact, Jesus tells us tenderly to "come to ME all you who labor and are heavy-laden and I will give you rest for your souls." NOT come to His mom, but to HIM. NO intermediary necessary.
This is just another excuse to ascribe to Mary what rightfully belongs only to her Son, thus elevating her to where she does NOT belong.
This is a lot of nonsense. We don't diminish Mary but recognize the part she played in bringing Jesus into the world and raising Him. We love, honor, and respect her as the wonderful mother of our Lord in His humanity, but beyond that, we refuse to go. We refuse to make a gross caricature out of her, as the RCC has done. We refuse to ascribe powers, glory, and some titles to her that rightfully belong ONLY to her Son!
Sure God did--but that doesn't mean it is hunky-dory to pray to her as one would to God, for help, comfort, and even salvation. That doesn't mean we can ascribe praise, powers, and some titles to her that rightfully belong ONLY to her Son! It is utterly shameful what the RCC has done to the humble lady of Nazareth!
Mary is NO CAUSE AT ALL, because it is GOD who enabled her to conceive and bear Jesus in her virgin body! She had no control over that whatsoever! God is the ONLY CAUSE FOR OUR SALVATION.
I don't speak to dead people. I don't speak to my dead mother and father, or dead grandmother, or dead dear friends. That doesn't mean I don't or didn't love them. I do and did. But I don't speak to them. Does that mean that I don't love them?
What a foolish argument!
This is patently false! I have seen some prayers to dead saints, especially Mary, that plead for her for protection, safety, help, and even salvation--things only GOD can give! Shameful!
More baloney. I have seen online Masses TO Mary. Balshan has offered to show you a few. Would you like to see them?
Both of you are alive upon the earth. Same plane of existence. Praying FOR each other is biblical; praying TO each other is NOT.
The point which YOU missed, surprise, surprise, is one doesn't speak to dead people. I know some go to loved one's graves and sometimes speak to them, as it comforts them....but do they call their loved ones the "only hope for sinners," "Cause of our salvation" or "Gate of heaven" and call them a sure "pledge" of their salvation?
IF you plead with them for help, comfort, and even salvation, then you ARE consulting them. You ARE asking the dead for help!
Show me where speaking to the dead is Biblical.
No it isn't, just because YOU say so.
Did you?
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Bonnie
Super Member
Romish, I think this is the argument you used, either early on these boards, or late on the old ones--that redemption isn't IN Jesus because He doesn't need to be redeemed. Redemption is IN Mary, because she is what someone who has been fully redeemed looks like. She is an example of total redemption. I am paraphrasing, but I think I got the gist correct.
But I proved you wrong, by using the Bible.
Right here, Paul says clearly that redemption is IN Christ Jesus--and He certainly was NOT redeemed! But Paul means that He is the source of our redemption, that it comes from Him. This is Christianity 101, Romish!
So, yes, redemption is IN Jesus Christ, because it comes FROM HIM. He is the source of our redemption.
So, no, redemption is NOT in Mary or any other saint. Redemption is IN Christ Jesus our Lord because He is the source of our redemption, through His holy blood.
But I proved you wrong, by using the Bible.
Right here, Paul says clearly that redemption is IN Christ Jesus--and He certainly was NOT redeemed! But Paul means that He is the source of our redemption, that it comes from Him. This is Christianity 101, Romish!
So, yes, redemption is IN Jesus Christ, because it comes FROM HIM. He is the source of our redemption.
So, no, redemption is NOT in Mary or any other saint. Redemption is IN Christ Jesus our Lord because He is the source of our redemption, through His holy blood.
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Atemi
Well-known member
Atemi
Well-known member
Catholics do not even understand Christianity 101....and reject it at every turn.
How we have to constantly explain the basics to them shows they learn almost nothing during their Mass.
Bonnie
Super Member
I am inclined to agree with you. Apparently, their priests do a lousy job of teaching them about what Jesus really did for us on the cross and WHY. Maybe too busy focusing on Mary....
People can only teach what they have been taught, whether by word – either written or spoken – or by example. The priests are there to perform the RCC's rites in the correct manner (remember the problem caused by the priest who got the words of the christening ceremony wrong?); what teaching of Catholicism happened was pre-F. H. Communion, and prior to the Confirmation ceremony, at which point the RC youth is declared capable of "defending the faith". That is, the Catholic faith, which s/he has been told is the Christian faith. So maybe two years of learning the RC Catechisms, fourteen years of traditional words and movements and prayers (repetitiously and redundantly repeated over and over), and viola` – we see the sad results here. ?
--Rich
That is because they teach more on Mary and what she does for us, and living perfectly. So your maybe is accurate.
It is, you just want to add to the scriptures that it doesn't mean RCC dead. It does not make that exception. Please if it was so acceptable where did the apostles pray to dead Stephen? Then you might have a leg to stand on.
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RayneBeau
Well-known member
romish - Wasn't it God who said: "All men have sinned"?
Why don't you take His word for it, and give up Mary as your only hope!? Mary was sinner just like all mankind, so says the Word of God.
Stop trying to convince Him (and others) that although you sin, you're an exception because you're an RC who clings to Mary as their "only hope."
Repent of your sins because Christ died on the cross to pay the penalty for your sins, not just for the original sin of Adam, but for all your sins.
RayneBeau
Well-known member
Good grief! Why is it so difficult for Roman Catholics to realize that salvation is God's gift to us. All we must do to receive a gift is to accept it! To accept God's gift of salvation means to accept His Son because, God gave us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. Whoever possesses the Son possesses life. . . (1 John 5:11-12).