Let me name the RC ways of salvation

Yeah, you DO.

You miss the point. I was not asking about Consubstantiation. I already know Lutherans do not believe that. The POINT I was making was that--IF I continued to insist that Lutherans believe in Consubstantiation, even AFTER being corrected MULTIPLE TIMES by people like you who know what Lutherans do and do not believe----you would suggest that I either do not get Lutheranism, or, I do get Lutheranism, but none-the-less continue to falsely caricaturize what they believe.

You, Bonnie, are like the Catholic who insists Lutherans believe Consubstantiation even after being corrected multiple times.

Because I care about Catholics who may wonder on to these boards.

Yeah-fellowship. Great.

If the Holy Spirit is your teacher, why do we need teachers? Seems superfluous, doesn't it? Who needs a teacher, when God teaches them?

You got that right.

It is if the Holy Spirit has revealed in your heart that the RCC is the Church of Christ and yet you reject it, even AFTER testimony by the Holy Spirit.

That isn't the point.

I am not Catholic because Catholicism grants me salvation, but because Christ is in Catholicism.
For someone who loves to carry on about how great they are at apologetics, why do you give us the childish response of Yeah, you do.

You keep bringing Luther and Lutheran beliefs into your discussions. Bonnie doesn't, she does defend Luther and the Lutheran beliefs against the false claims made by RCs and then states take it to the Lutheran board. She does the right thing.

You clearly have a reading problem or maybe Bonnie's response went over your head. No where does Bonnie ever claim the HS revealed the RCC is the church of Christ. It isn't.

Jesus is not in the RCC and He would never follow false teachers and wolves or put such in authority.
 
Yeah, you DO.

You miss the point. I was not asking about Consubstantiation. I already know Lutherans do not believe that. The POINT I was making was that--IF I continued to insist that Lutherans believe in Consubstantiation, even AFTER being corrected MULTIPLE TIMES by people like you who know what Lutherans do and do not believe----you would suggest that I either do not get Lutheranism, or, I do get Lutheranism, but none-the-less continue to falsely caricaturize what they believe.

I missed nothing. But I don't mischaracterize your faith. I know what it teaches.
You, Bonnie, are like the Catholic who insists Lutherans believe Consubstantiation even after being corrected multiple times.

Except I don't mischaracterize your faith.
Because I care about Catholics who may wonder on to these boards.

I think you mean "wander." But I care about them, too, hence, why I post the truth on here.
Yeah-fellowship. Great.

If the Holy Spirit is your teacher, why do we need teachers? Seems superfluous, doesn't it? Who needs a teacher, when God teaches them?

Paul lists the many church workers, and not all are given to teaching.
You got that right.

But where have I gotten Catholic teachings wrong? If I am not sure, then I say so and ask for clarification.
It is if the Holy Spirit has revealed in your heart that the RCC is the Church of Christ and yet you reject it, even AFTER testimony by the Holy Spirit.

He didn't. In fact, He did the very opposite.
That isn't the point.

Oh, but it is!
I am not Catholic because Catholicism grants me salvation, but because Christ is in Catholicism.
Did the HS reveal to you that this is hunky dorey with God?

 
Did the HS reveal to you that this is hunky dorey with God?

Actually Bonnie---I wouldn't exactly say I agree with you here, but--I sort of agree. The reason I say this is becasue I do not wish to throw the baby out with the bathwater--namely devotion to the saints and Mary. But the above---over-the-top gaudiness of the statue and procession--is simply not necessary.

In the modern world and Church---I think what is happening in the video you linked----is unnecessary and over-the-top. I do not like it--and I think the RCC needs to move on from that. The over-the-top gaudiness of churches and statues------is simply unnecessary and I think a distraction in the modern Church. That kind of thing was appropriate at one time, but I do not think they are appropriate in the modern Church--if for no other reason that they give the enemies of our Faith ammunition. In other words, Bonnie---the Protestant criticisms of our Faith--are not always wrong. Sometimes they make a valid point--and I think this is one of those times.

Understand what I am saying however: I accept your point about the video. It does not follow that I think devotion to the Saints and Mary is a problem--only that the way this devotion is expressed in the above video--is gaudy--and over-the-top--it is too much--and is simply not necessary.

Traditional Catholics would vehemently disagree--and that is fine. I am simply expressing my opinion. Nothing more.
 
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For someone who loves to carry on about how great they are at apologetics, why do you give us the childish response of Yeah, you do.
Becasue I get tired of putting thought and work into a post--only to have the Protestant totally disregard what was said, not deal with what was said in any substantive or meaningful sense---and just repeat the argument my post refuted as though I had posted nothing.
You keep bringing Luther and Lutheran beliefs into your discussions. Bonnie doesn't, she does defend Luther and the Lutheran beliefs against the false claims made by RCs and then states take it to the Lutheran board. She does the right thing.
I wasn't making a point about Lutheranism. What I was attempting to do is help her understand what it is to caricaturize one's Faith--as she and every other Protestant does on this site.
You clearly have a reading problem or maybe Bonnie's response went over your head. No where does Bonnie ever claim the HS revealed the RCC is the church of Christ. It isn't.
I do not recall claiming she did.
Jesus is not in the RCC and He would never follow false teachers and wolves or put such in authority.
If Jesus isn't in the RCC, where is he? Where should I look?
 
If Jesus isn't in the RCC, where is he? Where should I look?

In John 4, the woman at the well broached the subject of "where" and Jesus said to her.

John 4:23-24
"But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."


It isn't where we worship, but who and why we worship. Worship is our response to the worthiness of someone or something. When we worship God, we do so in response to who He is. Our words that we speak, and our actions show that we believe the character and conduct of God to be worthy of praise and adoration.

To worship God in spirit and in truth, is to declare that God is exclusively worthy of our praise, honor and thanksgiving. We do this, through our heart, not our physical heart, but our spirit, which is the emotional core of our being. We worship God exclusively, because of who He is, and what He does, because of who we are, and what is happening in our world. We do it with a heart inclined toward God and in submission to Him. We worship God when our attitudes, actions, and words declare that He is worthy of our praise.
 
Actually Bonnie---I wouldn't exactly say I agree with you here, but--I sort of agree. The reason I say this is becasue I do not wish to throw the baby out with the bathwater--namely devotion to the saints and Mary.

but these should be thrown out--they are unbiblical and unnecessary and can lead to idolatry--as this video shows. It can lead people to put more faith in prayers to Mary and other dead saints than in Jesus Christ, for help, succor--and even salvation.
But the above---over-the-top gaudiness of the statue and procession--is simply not necessary.

Neither is devotion and prayers to saints dead in the Lord.
In the modern world and Church---I think what is happening in the video you linked----is unnecessary and over-the-top. I do not like it--and I think the RCC needs to move on from that. The over-the-top gaudiness of churches and statues------is simply unnecessary and I think a distraction in the modern Church.

I agree. But then, this only came about because your church promotes devotions and prayers to saints dead in the Lord, and especially to Mary. Had there been no devotion and prayers to her, garbage like this video would never have happened.
That kind of thing was appropriate at one time,

Wrong. It was NEVER APPROPRIATE. At ANY time.
but I do not think they are appropriate in the modern Church
See above.
--if for no other reason that they give the enemies of our Faith ammunition. In other words, Bonnie---the Protestant criticisms of our Faith--are not always wrong. Sometimes they make a valid point--and I think this is one of those times.

Well, thank you for that! But then, this is what hyperdulia of Mary can lead to.
Understand what I am saying however: I accept your point about the video

I understand what you are saying, but that still does not excuse hyperdulia of Mary, and prayers for protection, faith, succor, and even salvation.
. It does not follow that I think devotion to the Saints and Mary is a problem--only that the way this devotion is expressed in the above video--is gaudy--and over-the-top--it is too much--and is simply not necessary.

This video shows what hyperdulia of Mary can lead to. NO hyperdulia or even dulia of Mary, other than to love, honor, and respect her as the mother of our Lord in His Incarnation, would not have led to this type of parade.
Traditional Catholics would vehemently disagree--and that is fine. I am simply expressing my opinion. Nothing more.
That is fine; we all have a right to our opinions. Thank you.
 
That is fine; we all have a right to our opinions. Thank you.
No, apparently we don't ALL have a right to our opinions because you don't like the custom of the people in Spain, per your video, AND THINK THEY SHOULD BE STOPPED. Seems your opinion is superior to theirs.
 
In John 4, the woman at the well broached the subject of "where" and Jesus said to her.

John 4:23-24
"But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."


It isn't where we worship, but who and why we worship. Worship is our response to the worthiness of someone or something. When we worship God, we do so in response to who He is. Our words that we speak, and our actions show that we believe the character and conduct of God to be worthy of praise and adoration.

To worship God in spirit and in truth, is to declare that God is exclusively worthy of our praise, honor and thanksgiving. We do this, through our heart, not our physical heart, but our spirit, which is the emotional core of our being. We worship God exclusively, because of who He is, and what He does, because of who we are, and what is happening in our world. We do it with a heart inclined toward God and in submission to Him. We worship God when our attitudes, actions, and words declare that He is worthy of our praise.
Great. Since it does not matter where we worship God, I will stick with Catholicism and worship God there.
 
No, apparently we don't ALL have a right to our opinions because you don't like the custom of the people in Spain, per your video, AND THINK THEY SHOULD BE STOPPED. Seems your opinion is superior to theirs.
Not what Bonnie posted at all. Clearly you don't . If it could lead another to stray then don't do. It is obviously worship and that leads other to stray, therefore the Vatican should be curtailing such exaggerations.
 
Great. Since it does not matter where we worship God, I will stick with Catholicism and worship God there.

You think of yourself as clever. You have a bigger problem than the location of a building with stained glass. You claim to worship God but don't point others to Him. Instead, you pointed to faith in an institution, and in rcc traditions. You told me to step into a rcc and admire the building and your traditions.

No where in Scripture does it teach us to put our faith and hope in an institution.
 
You think of yourself as clever. You have a bigger problem than the location of a building with stained glass. You claim to worship God but don't point others to Him. Instead, you pointed to faith in an institution, and in rcc traditions. You told me to step into a rcc and admire the building and your traditions.

No where in Scripture does it teach us to put our faith and hope in an institution.
excellent post.
 
How many ways are there to be saved according to the various RC posts on here:

1. saved by baptism
2. saved by the sacrament of communion
3. saved by following the pope
4. saved by the RCC
5. saved by Mary.
6. prayers to Mary
7. works and so on

However there is only one way and that is by faith through grace in Jesus.

Eph 2;8+

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
not by works, so that no one can boast.

Titus 3:5

not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

John 14;6

Jesus answered, “
I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

How many saviours do RCs have:

1. Mary
2. the pope
3. the RCC
4. and last but not least Jesus.

But scripture is clear we have only one saviour. Jesus.

1 Tim 2:5

For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

Acts 4:12

And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved


Why does the RCC have to complicate the simple message of God on how to be saved? Why does the RCC need to put extra burdens on the people?
All salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body [CCC 846] Hence, “outside the Church there is no salvation”.

JoeT
 
All salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body [CCC 846] Hence, “outside the Church there is no salvation”.

JoeT
Jesus would never use the evil institution that is the RCC. It is not his church quoting you false book means absolutely nothing. Jesus saves us through the real church. Your church fails the scriptural tests, it fails the discernment test. But it does pass the bad tree test, there is no salvation in the RCC and its false teachings.
 
I see, the God of Gods has spoken. How do you know what Jesus would or wouldn't do?

JoeT
Because like all real believers I know Jesus. Jesus would never set up evil as something we should follow and the fruits of your institution are the bad tree. No need to be a rocket scientist to understand His teachings.
 
JoeT said:
I see, the God of Gods has spoken. How do you know what Jesus would or wouldn't do?
===================
end of Joes post

Amos 3:7
Surely the Lord God will do nothing,
but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
 
No, apparently we don't ALL have a right to our opinions because you don't like the custom of the people in Spain, per your video, AND THINK THEY SHOULD BE STOPPED. Seems your opinion is superior to theirs.
That is my opinion, but it is backed by Scripture. That parade is worship of Mary.

So, everyone has a right to an opinion, except me? Is that it?
 
The 4 Marian dogmas--or are those considered 4 separate things? How about Indulgences? Being subject to the pope is necessary for salvation...

Whoops, sorry, those are 3 things....and you only wanted one. Oh, well, always give the customer more than he or she asks for...
So are you about proof texting? Word for word, explicit text?
 
Not what the poster said but an RC posters likes to use explict, actual words when it suits them.
You are not the poster. And it is about explicit, word for word proof.

Tell me as a non Catholic that you do not expect word for word proof text from a Catholic.
 
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