Let us make man in our image

Stephen

Active member
Genesis 1:26-27 contains a phrase long abused to support the idea of a multi-personal God with the idea that Jesus is one of those persons. Let's read passage, and the New Testament exposition see how the passage relates Jesus to the "us" or even to the creator.


Genesis 1:

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

Reading the passage, the idea of demanding that God is speaking to God through the use of the word "us" is wishful thinking at best. The idea that God is speaking to God isn't mandatory, or even likely. The speaker is speaking to others.

Reading the passage, God is repeatedly described as a single person with the words "himself, "he", "he". Further, the "himself", "he", "he" are in fact directly applied to God. In contrast the words "us" simply include the speaker within a group of others.


Moving to the New Testament:

1 Corinthians 11:7: For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.

Here, men are identified as the image of God. This is consistent with the Old testament.


Colossians 1:15: He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

Here Jesus is identified in the same terms as the "man" in Gen 1:27, not identified with the creator or the "us". A clear rejection of the idea that Jesus is one of the "us", rather he is clearly identified as the creation.


2 Corinthians 4:4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Much the same as Colossians 1:15. A clear rejection of the idea that Jesus is one of the "us", rather he is clearly identified as the creation.


Hebrews 1:3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Note here that the Greek words are not the same, but if Hebrews 1:3 is counted among these other verses that refere to Gen 1:27, the story is the same. Jesus is clearly identified as the creation.


Ephesians 4:24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

Here, men are identified as the image of God. This is consistent with the Old testament. Like Jesus, men and and women are created in the likeness of God.

Colossians 3:10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.

Here, men are identified as being renews after the image of their creator. The "image of its creator" in the passage is Jesus. This is consistent with the Old testament. Men and women, Jesus among them, are creations, not the "us".



The biblical exposition of the phrase "let us created man" is clear. Jesus isn't part of the "us". In contradiction to many expositors, the bible teaches that Jesus is the image of God.
 

johnny guitar

Active member
Genesis 1:26-27 contains a phrase long abused to support the idea of a multi-personal God with the idea that Jesus is one of those persons. Let's read passage, and the New Testament exposition see how the passage relates Jesus to the "us" or even to the creator.


Genesis 1:

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

Reading the passage, the idea of demanding that God is speaking to God through the use of the word "us" is wishful thinking at best. The idea that God is speaking to God isn't mandatory, or even likely. The speaker is speaking to others.

Reading the passage, God is repeatedly described as a single person with the words "himself, "he", "he". Further, the "himself", "he", "he" are in fact directly applied to God. In contrast the words "us" simply include the speaker within a group of others.


Moving to the New Testament:

1 Corinthians 11:7: For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.

Here, men are identified as the image of God. This is consistent with the Old testament.


Colossians 1:15: He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

Here Jesus is identified in the same terms as the "man" in Gen 1:27, not identified with the creator or the "us". A clear rejection of the idea that Jesus is one of the "us", rather he is clearly identified as the creation.


2 Corinthians 4:4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Much the same as Colossians 1:15. A clear rejection of the idea that Jesus is one of the "us", rather he is clearly identified as the creation.


Hebrews 1:3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Note here that the Greek words are not the same, but if Hebrews 1:3 is counted among these other verses that refere to Gen 1:27, the story is the same. Jesus is clearly identified as the creation.


Ephesians 4:24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

Here, men are identified as the image of God. This is consistent with the Old testament. Like Jesus, men and and women are created in the likeness of God.

Colossians 3:10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.

Here, men are identified as being renews after the image of their creator. The "image of its creator" in the passage is Jesus. This is consistent with the Old testament. Men and women, Jesus among them, are creations, not the "us".



The biblical exposition of the phrase "let us created man" is clear. Jesus isn't part of the "us". In contradiction to many expositors, the bible teaches that Jesus is the image of God.
So WHO is the US and OUR in Gen. 1:26?????
 

Stephen

Active member
So WHO is the US and OUR in Gen. 1:26?????

That is outside the scope of New Testament exposition of the verse. The bible is exceedingly clear in multiple locations that Jesus is identified with the "man" that was created by the "himself/he" (i.e. God) and not the "our" and the "us" (i.e. God + others).
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
That is outside the scope of New Testament exposition of the verse. The bible is exceedingly clear in multiple locations that Jesus is identified with the "man" that was created by the "himself/he" (i.e. God) and not the "our" and the "us" (i.e. God + others).

Yes, Psalm 8 is referring to the CREATION of man and how God made him to rule over the beasts of the field and birds of the air and fish of the sea at Genesis 1:26-29.

What is man that You are mindful of him,
And the son of
man that You care for him?
5 Yet You have made him a little lower than angels,
And You crown him with glory and majesty!
6 You make him to rule over the works of Your hands;

You have put all things under his feet,
7 All sheep and oxen,
And also the beasts of the field,
8 The birds of the heavens and the fish of the sea,
Whatever passes through the paths of the seas.
Psalm 8, on the creation of man

The Hebrews writer quotes Psalm 8 in reference to Jesus.

5 For He did not subject to angels the world to come, concerning which we are speaking. 6 But one has testified somewhere, saying,
“What is man, that You remember him?
Or the son of man, that You are concerned about him?
7 “You have made him a little lower than the angels;
You have crowned him with glory and honor,
And have appointed him over the works of Your hands;
8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.”
For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.
Hebrews 2

God subjected all things to a created man named Jesus. After all that is what Psalm 8 is referring to - the creation of man.

So by quoting the Psalm about the creation of man, the Hebrews writer is informing us that God subjected all things in heaven and on the earth to a created man named Jesus.

And that is why all creation must bow down to him.
 
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johnny guitar

Active member
That is outside the scope of New Testament exposition of the verse. The bible is exceedingly clear in multiple locations that Jesus is identified with the "man" that was created by the "himself/he" (i.e. God) and not the "our" and the "us" (i.e. God + others).
EVASION. You did NOT answer the question.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
That is outside the scope of New Testament exposition of the verse. The bible is exceedingly clear in multiple locations that Jesus is identified with the "man" that was created by the "himself/he" (i.e. God) and not the "our" and the "us" (i.e. God + others).
This is exactly why you keep failing.

The new testament is not a distinct separation from the old testament.

Everything that is stated in the new testament is based entirely on the old testament.
 

Stephen

Active member
This is exactly why you keep failing.

I see you have a vivid imagination.

The new testament is not a distinct separation from the old testament.

Everything that is stated in the new testament is based entirely on the old testament.

No kidding. If you had comprehended the original post, you would have noticed that was the basis for the post.



Do you wish to offer any scriptures where Genesis 1:26-27 ithat contradict the analysis presented herein?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
I see you have a vivid imagination.



No kidding. If you had comprehended the original post, you would have noticed that was the basis for the post.



Do you wish to offer any scriptures where Genesis 1:26-27 ithat contradict the analysis presented herein?
I don't need a vivid imagination. You achieve that all by yourself.

Yet you explicitly dismissed Guitar's question to you, stating it was outside the scope.

It's not outside the scope.

Nor did you engage him.

He even called you on this.

If you don't actually want your questions answered, why would you post?

Just go back to your bedroom and play computer games.

We're here to answer your questions. But you don't get to act rudely by disregarding when you are asked for clarification.
 

Stephen

Active member
EVASION. You did NOT answer the question.

Please do not confuse your lack of reading comprehension with me not answering the question: "our" and the "us" (i.e. God + others).



I will offer what the scholars offer as to who the "others" are:

From the NET Bible:

sn The plural form of the verb has been the subject of much discussion through the years, and not surprisingly several suggestions have been put forward. Many Christian theologians interpret it as an early hint of plurality within the Godhead, but this view imposes later trinitarian concepts on the ancient text. Some have suggested the plural verb indicates majesty, but the plural of majesty is not used with verbs. C. Westermann (Genesis, 1:145) argues for a plural of “deliberation” here, but his proposed examples of this use (2 Sam 24:14; Isa 6:8) do not actually support his theory. In 2 Sam 24:14 David uses the plural as representative of all Israel, and in Isa 6:8 the Lord speaks on behalf of his heavenly court. In its ancient Israelite context the plural is most naturally understood as referring to God and his heavenly court (see 1 Kgs 22:19-22; Job 1:6-12; 2:1-6; Isa 6:1-8). (The most well-known members of this court are God’s messengers, or angels. In Gen 3:5 the serpent may refer to this group as “gods/divine beings.” See the note on the word “evil” in 3:5.) If this is the case, God invites the heavenly court to participate at the creation of humankind (perhaps in the role of offering praise, see Job 38:7), but he himself is the one who does the actual creative work (v. 27). Of course, this view does assume that the members of the heavenly court possess the divine “image” in some way. Since the image is closely associated with rulership, perhaps they share the divine image in that they, together with God and under his royal authority, are the executive authority over the world.​



The one thing for sure about the "who" is that it isn't Jesus. The bible is exceedingly clear on the topic, Jesus is the man in the image of God, not the God, and not the us.
 

Stephen

Active member
I don't need a vivid imagination. You achieve that all by yourself.

Yet you explicitly dismissed Guitar's question to you, stating it was outside the scope.

I said it was "outside the scope of New Testament exposition of the verse". There is no need to partially state a phase and then be offended because you left out crucial details.


Nor did you engage him.

He even called you on this.

I answered him factually and biblically. The "us" is God plus others. Who the others are isn't stated in scripture.


If you don't actually want your questions answered, why would you post?

I didn't ask a question. There wasn't a question mark in my post. Your question to me is based on a lack of reading comprehension.

However, the answer to your question is: I posted it for the edification of the less biblically knowledgeable who like to proffer the foolish notion that Jesus is part of the "us", where as the bible explains in multiple locations that Jesus is identified with the creation, "the man in the image of God".


Just go back to your bedroom and play computer games.

I see you have a bountiful fantasy life about me. I suggest you spend more time thinking about the bible. Perhaps inspired exposition of Genesis 1:26-27 in multiple places over the bible would be a good place to start.


We're here to answer your questions. But you don't get to act rudely by disregarding when you are asked for clarification.

I don't believe that you are here to answer my questions.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
The one thing for sure about the "who" is that it isn't Jesus. The bible is exceedingly clear on the topic, Jesus is the man in the image of God, not the God, and not the us.

Yep.

But please understand that many desire to create their own Jesus for the sake of satisfying their own fleshly desires.
 

johnny guitar

Active member
Please do not confuse your lack of reading comprehension with me not answering the question: "our" and the "us" (i.e. God + others).



I will offer what the scholars offer as to who the "others" are:

From the NET Bible:

sn The plural form of the verb has been the subject of much discussion through the years, and not surprisingly several suggestions have been put forward. Many Christian theologians interpret it as an early hint of plurality within the Godhead, but this view imposes later trinitarian concepts on the ancient text. Some have suggested the plural verb indicates majesty, but the plural of majesty is not used with verbs. C. Westermann (Genesis, 1:145) argues for a plural of “deliberation” here, but his proposed examples of this use (2 Sam 24:14; Isa 6:8) do not actually support his theory. In 2 Sam 24:14 David uses the plural as representative of all Israel, and in Isa 6:8 the Lord speaks on behalf of his heavenly court. In its ancient Israelite context the plural is most naturally understood as referring to God and his heavenly court (see 1 Kgs 22:19-22; Job 1:6-12; 2:1-6; Isa 6:1-8). (The most well-known members of this court are God’s messengers, or angels. In Gen 3:5 the serpent may refer to this group as “gods/divine beings.” See the note on the word “evil” in 3:5.) If this is the case, God invites the heavenly court to participate at the creation of humankind (perhaps in the role of offering praise, see Job 38:7), but he himself is the one who does the actual creative work (v. 27). Of course, this view does assume that the members of the heavenly court possess the divine “image” in some way. Since the image is closely associated with rulership, perhaps they share the divine image in that they, together with God and under his royal authority, are the executive authority over the world.​



The one thing for sure about the "who" is that it isn't Jesus. The bible is exceedingly clear on the topic, Jesus is the man in the image of God, not the God, and not the us.
Angels had NOTHING to do with the creation of man and man is made in the image of God, NOT God and angels. Gen. 1:27 thus the NET exegesis is worthless. The only conclusion is the US and OUR is The Triune God.
 

TrevorL

Member
Greetings johnny guitar and Stephen,
So WHO is the US and OUR in Gen. 1:26?????
The "us" is God plus others. Who the others are isn't stated in scripture.
Psalm 8:5 is a summary of Genesis 1:26-27 using the same ideas but in different terms and this shows that the "us" and "our" of Genesis 1:26 includes the Angels.
Psalm 8:5 (KJV): Thou (Yahweh v1) hast made him a little than the angels.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Stephen

Active member
Angels had NOTHING to do with the creation of man and man is made in the image of God, NOT God and angels. Gen. 1:27 thus the NET exegesis is worthless. The only conclusion is the US and OUR is The Triune God.

I suppose this is the sort of bible reasoning it takes to be a trinitarian.


We have to deny that
  • Only one person created man, that person is identified as "he", "himself', and "God" as Genesis 1:27 and Psalm 8:5 make clear.
  • Jesus is the image of God
  • in the kingdom, we will be made like the angels for we are God's children
  • when God's children see Jesus they will be like him
And then we have to deny that these are related.


(along with all rational scholarship)
 

SteveB

Well-known member
I suppose this is the sort of bible reasoning it takes to be a trinitarian.
if basic exegesis is "that sort of bible reasoning", then yeah.
Just because angels were present does not mean they created man. It's plainly stated that YHVH created male and female, in HIS likeness and image.

US, and OUR..... they're plural personal pronouns.
Like, me and my, as singular.
I have however come to realize something. You're not interested in actually dialogue, and interactive learning.
Like someone with a full cup, you have no room for more information. only in spewing what information you already have.

we "trinitarians" have been reading the bible for decades, and were taught by others, who themselves were reading for decades, etc... all the way back to the beginning. Even Athanasius, from the late 3rd, and early 4th centuries, in his book on the Incarnation, made it pretty simple.....
Jesus is God incarnate.


We have to deny that
  • Only one person created man, that person is identified as "he", "himself', and "God" as Genesis 1:27 and Psalm 8:5 make clear.
  • Jesus is the image of God
  • in the kingdom, we will be made like the angels for we are God's children
  • when God's children see Jesus they will be like him
And then we have to deny that these are related.


(along with all rational scholarship)
Ironic.....
I've yet to meet a single "trinitarian" who'd deny any of these things.
  • Only ONE Person did create man. YHVH. Deuteronomy 6:4, John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:15-19, Ephesians 3:9, Hebrews 1:2-4, Genesis 1-2:7, Psalm 33:6-9,
  • Jesus IS the image of God/YHVH. Colossians 1:15-19, Hebrews 1.
  • In the kingdom, we will be like Jesus, for we will see him as he is. 1 John 3, We are being conformed to the likeness and image of Jesus- Romans 8:28-30.
    • the angels part in Matthew, it's pretty clear from the context that is referring to whether we'll be married, and have continued, ongoing biological families in the Kingdom.



And it's all based on more than JUST rational scholarship.
It's called reading the whole bible. That thing you said the other day was unnecessary.
It doesn't require imposing any outside, or extra-biblical ideas on it.
As we've long been taught--- the bible is quite capable of interpreting itself.
 
I've yet to meet a single "trinitarian" who'd deny any of these things.
  • Only ONE Person did create man. YHVH. Deuteronomy 6:4, John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:15-19, Ephesians 3:9, Hebrews 1:2-4, Genesis 1-2:7, Psalm 33:6-9,

Just to be clear...


You are saying...

Only ONE Person created man.

Correct?


And you are saying...

You have never met a Trinitarian who believes MORE than ONE Person created man.

Correct?
 

Stephen

Active member
if basic exegesis is "that sort of bible reasoning", then yeah.
Just because angels were present does not mean they created man. It's plainly stated that YHVH created male and female, in HIS likeness and image.

US, and OUR..... they're plural personal pronouns.
Like, me and my, as singular.

I don't believe anybody in this thread has made the argument that the angels created. As stated in the opening post and made clear in verse 27, only one person created.

This directly denies any idea that some sort of multipersonal being did the creating.


I have however come to realize something. You're not interested in actually dialogue, and interactive learning.

Like someone with a full cup, you have no room for more information. only in spewing what information you already have.

I am interested in new information, but you haven't provided any. For example, you stated to me above what I stated in the first post as if it is somehow new information.


we "trinitarians" have been reading the bible for decades, and were taught by others, who themselves were reading for decades, etc... all the way back to the beginning. Even Athanasius, from the late 3rd, and early 4th centuries, in his book on the Incarnation, made it pretty simple.....
Jesus is God incarnate.

I find it fascinating that you are so naïve that you think this is somehow important. Do you have any scriptural based reasoning to bring to the discussion?

Ironic.....
I've yet to meet a single "trinitarian" who'd deny any of these things.
  • Only ONE Person did create man. YHVH. Deuteronomy 6:4, John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:15-19, Ephesians 3:9, Hebrews 1:2-4, Genesis 1-2:7, Psalm 33:6-9,
  • Jesus IS the image of God/YHVH. Colossians 1:15-19, Hebrews 1.
  • In the kingdom, we will be like Jesus, for we will see him as he is. 1 John 3, We are being conformed to the likeness and image of Jesus- Romans 8:28-30.
    • the angels part in Matthew, it's pretty clear from the context that is referring to whether we'll be married, and have continued, ongoing biological families in the Kingdom

May I introduce you to Jonny Guitar who did exactly that in the post I was quoting.

And it's all based on more than JUST rational scholarship.
It's called reading the whole bible. That thing you said the other day was unnecessary.
It doesn't require imposing any outside, or extra-biblical ideas on it.
As we've long been taught--- the bible is quite capable of interpreting itself.

So far, you haven't shown me any exposition of Genesis 1:26-27 in the bible that disagrees with my analysis.
 
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