Let's apply Calvinist hermeneutics to Romans 5:19.

squirrelyguy

Active member
This is related to something another poster said about Hebrews 9:28, but I thought it deserved to be posted as its own thread.

I am going to demonstrate using Calvinist hermeneutics that only some men were made sinners by Adam's transgression.

Here is Romans 5:19: "For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous."

Notice that this verse says "many" were made sinners, not "all". If you doubt the implications, ask yourself: did Christ's obedience result in all men being made righteous, or only some? If you agree with the Bible that Christ's atonement was limited to the elect (I'm speaking as a Calvinist), then you must concede that, in order for Paul's analogy here to work, only some men were made sinners.

If you object to my claim that only some men were made sinners by Adam's transgression, how would you prove me wrong? You would go to other verses of Scripture that speak of Adam's transgression extending to ALL of the human race. And that's exactly what one should do...consider the full testimony of Scripture! But it is for this same reason that the Calvinist logic regarding limited atonement fails; although verses like Hebrews 9:28 use the word "many", there are other verses that use the word "all".

Even elsewhere in Hebrews we have such universal language: "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone." (Heb. 2:9) Notice how it says that Christ might taste death for "everyone."
 
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Mike McK

Well-known member
This is related to something another poster said about Hebrews 9:28, but I thought it deserved to be posted as its own thread.

I am going to demonstrate using Calvinist hermeneutics that only some men were made sinners by Adam's transgression.

Here is Romans 5:19: "For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous."

Notice that this verse says "many" were made sinners, not "all". If you doubt the implications, ask yourself: did Christ's obedience result in all men being made righteous, or only some? If you agree with the Bible that Christ's atonement was limited to the elect (I'm speaking as a Calvinist), then you must concede that, in order for Paul's analogy here to work, only some men were made sinners.

If you object to my claim that only some men were made sinners by Adam's transgression, how would you prove me wrong? You would go to other verses of Scripture that speak of Adam's transgression extending to ALL of the human race. And that's exactly what one should do...consider the full testimony of Scripture! But it is for this same reason that the Calvinist logic regarding limited atonement fails; although verses like Hebrews 9:28 use the word "many", there are other verses that use the word "all".
By posting such a silly straw man and attributing it to Calvinists, you haven't actually refuted Calvinism.

All you've accomplished is to show everybody that you're dishonest and don't understand how to properly exegete scripture.

Paul's point isn't who is and is not a sinner, but to contrast the First and Second Adam.
 
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squirrelyguy

Active member
By posting such a silly straw man and attributing it to Calvinists, you haven't actually refuted Calvinism.

All you've accomplished is to show everybody that you're dishonest and don't understand how to properly exegete scripture.
So what hermeneutical principle do you use which allows the word "many" to be limited in scope when speaking of the atonement, but not limited in scope when speaking of Adam's transgression?
 

Mike McK

Well-known member
So what hermeneutical principle do you use which allows the word "many" to be limited in scope when speaking of the atonement, but not limited in scope when speaking of Adam's transgression?
The principle of context. You literally began where it says "therefore", which should have been your first clue that you were taking it out of context.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
This is related to something another poster said about Hebrews 9:28, but I thought it deserved to be posted as its own thread.

I am going to demonstrate using Calvinist hermeneutics that only some men were made sinners by Adam's transgression.

Here is Romans 5:19: "For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous."

Notice that this verse says "many" were made sinners, not "all". If you doubt the implications, ask yourself: did Christ's obedience result in all men being made righteous, or only some? If you agree with the Bible that Christ's atonement was limited to the elect (I'm speaking as a Calvinist), then you must concede that, in order for Paul's analogy here to work, only some men were made sinners.

If you object to my claim that only some men were made sinners by Adam's transgression, how would you prove me wrong? You would go to other verses of Scripture that speak of Adam's transgression extending to ALL of the human race. And that's exactly what one should do...consider the full testimony of Scripture! But it is for this same reason that the Calvinist logic regarding limited atonement fails; although verses like Hebrews 9:28 use the word "many", there are other verses that use the word "all".

Even elsewhere in Hebrews we have such universal language: "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone." (Heb. 2:9) Notice how it says that Christ might taste death for "everyone."
Don't worry about what people will say, it's a good thing you point this out; it has to be dealt with. John Gill said, "the persons made sinners are said to be "many", in opposition to the "one man", by whose disobedience they became so, and because there is an exception of one, even Jesus Christ; and mean all the natural descendants of Adam, who are many, and are so called,"...

You may not agree with his answer; but it is an explanation. That's the first explanation I found, but there are probably many more...
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
This is related to something another poster said about Hebrews 9:28, but I thought it deserved to be posted as its own thread.

I am going to demonstrate using Calvinist hermeneutics that only some men were made sinners by Adam's transgression.

Here is Romans 5:19: "For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous."

Notice that this verse says "many" were made sinners, not "all". If you doubt the implications, ask yourself: did Christ's obedience result in all men being made righteous, or only some? If you agree with the Bible that Christ's atonement was limited to the elect (I'm speaking as a Calvinist), then you must concede that, in order for Paul's analogy here to work, only some men were made sinners.

If you object to my claim that only some men were made sinners by Adam's transgression, how would you prove me wrong? You would go to other verses of Scripture that speak of Adam's transgression extending to ALL of the human race. And that's exactly what one should do...consider the full testimony of Scripture! But it is for this same reason that the Calvinist logic regarding limited atonement fails; although verses like Hebrews 9:28 use the word "many", there are other verses that use the word "all".

Even elsewhere in Hebrews we have such universal language: "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone." (Heb. 2:9) Notice how it says that Christ might taste death for "everyone."

There are several reasons this is not true. Though I will say those reasons are not reflected in Calvinism. I do believe they are reflected in God's Purpose, Plan and Providence. I'll not begin to explain unless you want to discuss.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
There are several reasons this is not true. Though I will say those reasons are not reflected in Calvinism. I do believe they are reflected in God's Purpose, Plan and Providence. I'll not begin to explain unless you want to discuss.
It probably wouldn't be a Foul to debate Original Sin here, because Total Depravity depends on it; but surely it would get Heated, and surely most everyone here believes in it...
 

civic

Well-known member
How about the context ?

This is what we see with every misinterpretation of Scripture happens when anyone isolates a verse from its context to tries and prove their premise. That is eisegesis not exegesis.

A text without the context is a pretext for a prooftext. The OP is proof-texting by isolating the verse and a single word ripped from its intended context.

Romans 5
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

hope this helps !!!
 

Mike McK

Well-known member
Don't worry about what people will say, it's a good thing you point this out; it has to be dealt with. John Gill said, "the persons made sinners are said to be "many", in opposition to the "one man", by whose disobedience they became so, and because there is an exception of one, even Jesus Christ; and mean all the natural descendants of Adam, who are many, and are so called,"...

You may not agree with his answer; but it is an explanation. That's the first explanation I found, but there are probably many more...
I'd like to read more about that. Do you have a link? I have Gill's commentaries. Is that under the verse or under another heading?
 

civic

Well-known member
By posting such a silly straw man and attributing it to Calvinists, you haven't actually refuted Calvinism.

All you've accomplished is to show everybody that you're dishonest and don't understand how to properly exegete scripture.

Paul's point isn't who is and is not a sinner, but to contrast the First and Second Adam.
You are correct in that Paul is contrasting the 1st adam with the 2nd Adam and the effects both had upon all men and the one contrasted with the many. Also many can mean the most or an indeterminate or indefinite number.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
How about the context ?

This is what we see with every misinterpretation of Scripture happens when anyone isolates a verse from its context to tries and prove their premise. That is eisegesis not exegesis.

A text without the context is a pretext for a prooftext. The OP is proof-texting by isolating the verse and a single word ripped from its intended context.

Romans 5
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

hope this helps !!!
I never understood Romans 5 until I started learning Covenant Theology...
 
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