Let's apply Calvinist hermeneutics to Romans 5:19.

civic

Well-known member
This is related to something another poster said about Hebrews 9:28, but I thought it deserved to be posted as its own thread.

I am going to demonstrate using Calvinist hermeneutics that only some men were made sinners by Adam's transgression.

Here is Romans 5:19: "For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous."

Notice that this verse says "many" were made sinners, not "all". If you doubt the implications, ask yourself: did Christ's obedience result in all men being made righteous, or only some? If you agree with the Bible that Christ's atonement was limited to the elect (I'm speaking as a Calvinist), then you must concede that, in order for Paul's analogy here to work, only some men were made sinners.

If you object to my claim that only some men were made sinners by Adam's transgression, how would you prove me wrong? You would go to other verses of Scripture that speak of Adam's transgression extending to ALL of the human race. And that's exactly what one should do...consider the full testimony of Scripture! But it is for this same reason that the Calvinist logic regarding limited atonement fails; although verses like Hebrews 9:28 use the word "many", there are other verses that use the word "all".

Even elsewhere in Hebrews we have such universal language: "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone." (Heb. 2:9) Notice how it says that Christ might taste death for "everyone."
Paul is contrasting the 1st adam with the 2nd Adam and the effects both had upon all men and the one contrasted with the many. Also many can mean the most or an indeterminate or indefinite number.

I'm reminded of Cosell's famous words :

" And down goes Frazier, down goes Frazier!"

So much for the OP that was easy.

hope this helps !!!
 

civic

Well-known member
praise_yeshua said:
I loved Schoolhouse Rock. However, that still doesn't help relative to the context you say exist contrary to the OP.

He's saying that "therefore" is a Conjunction, so the answer to the Poster is in the previous Verses...
And even his interpretation of the isolated verse is incorrect since many can mean an indefinite or indeterminate number. So he is wrong on both accounts the isolated verse and the surrounding context. Its a strawman.

And I'm not posting in this thread to defend calvinism just the meaning of the verse.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
There are several reasons this is not true. Though I will say those reasons are not reflected in Calvinism. I do believe they are reflected in God's Purpose, Plan and Providence. I'll not begin to explain unless you want to discuss.
Original Sin - by ReverendRV

Exodus. 34:1 NIV
: The LORD said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke.

God used Moses to give the Ten Commandments twice; why? ~ We read earlier in Exodus that God cut the first tablets out of the mountain himself, as if they were cut out without hands. This happened on top of Mount Sinai after the Israelites had been delivered from the slavery of Egypt. God made a Covenant with Israel through the Prophet Moses, and the people would be led to the Promised Land. But while Moses was on the mountain for forty days, the people began to think he wasn’t coming back. They encouraged his brother Aaron to make them a golden Idol to be their God. When Moses and Joshua finally came down the mountain with God’s Covenant, they heard Israel reveling in their Heresy of Idolatry. Enraged, Moses cast the stone tablets to the valley floor and they were forever broken. ~ This brings to mind the Doctrine of Original Sin; the teaching that because of the Sin of our fore fathers, we are born Sinners. All we have as an inheritance is a Law which is already broken…

Even if you think this is unfair, let’s see how you would have done if you were in their shoes and had an unbroken Covenant. Have you worshipped a god other than the God of the Bible? Many have but most likely you answered ‘No’. Idolatry ‘refines’ this first Commandment; have you ever made a god to suit yourself? You say “I have never made a carved image”; but have you ever thought of God as if he were ‘for you’ instead of ‘against you’? Jesus said that if you are not with him, you are against him. Since Jesus doesn’t suit you, then you have an image of god in your Mind which suits yourself. Have you ever used God’s name in vain as a cuss word? Just how much further away can you get and still be ‘with’ God?? There are seven more Commands, do we need to continue? If God judged you by the Ten Commandments, would you be innocent or are you guilty? Be honest, remember that thousands of Israelites died the day the tablets were broken; for the ‘lone’ Sin of Idolatry. God sends guilty Sinners to a burning Hell for all eternity, and you only have a broken Covenant to work with…

God had Moses chisel out more tablets of stone so God could keep the Covenant for them. These tablets were stored within the Ark of the Covenant, which is an Old Testament ‘Type’; symbolic of Jesus Christ. The Bible tells us that Jesus ‘kept’ the Law of Moses and this means that he never Sinned; he was able to keep the Covenants God made with Adam and Israel! God made two copies of the Mosaic Covenant, and the first copy is symbolic of a prior Covenant God made with Adam; he broke the only Law he had too! You can only be represented in Adam or in Christ; by a broken Covenant or by an unbroken Covenant. Have Faith in Jesus Christ as the Risen Lord and Savior of Mankind and you will be Saved; forgiven of Sin forever! Start reading your Bible and find a local Church who will teach you about the New Covenant that God made through his Son Jesus Christ; and learn from him. ~ Learn this; Moses put three items within the Ark of the Covenant and they all symbolize Jesus. The Ten Commandments which he didn’t break, the Rod of Aaron which budded (life after death) and a jar of Manna which is the bread of Life that came down from Heaven…

Daniel 2:34 NLT: As you watched, a rock was cut from a mountain, but not by human hands. It struck the feet of iron and clay, smashing them to bits.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
I get that now. Sorry for the confusion. I wasn't taking it that way.

Yes

οὖν
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.
apparently a primary word; (adverb) certainly, or (conjecture) accordingly :- and (so, truly), but, now (then), so (likewise then), then, therefore, verily, wherefore.
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.
 

Mike McK

Well-known member
By the way.... Please realize that English grammar doesn't dictate Greek context.
We're talking about the verse as he posted it, in English.
That's where I was going. I just wasn't sure what heading it would be under. Thanks.
 
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ReverendRV

Well-known member
We're talking about the verse as he posted it, in English.

That's where I was going. I just wasn't sure what heading it would be under. Thanks.
Imagine you were the Author, and you wanted to write "all" there; but the Holy Ghost said "No". You might ask "Why?". Then the Spirit says, "Because Jesus is part of the 'all', so it can only be the 'many'".
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Imagine you were the Author, and you wanted to write "all" there; but the Holy Ghost said "No". You might ask "Why?". Then the Spirit says, "Because Jesus is part of the 'all', so it can only be the 'many'".
CARM be rollin' when it's time to fight, but be chillin' when the fight is ovah...
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
Yes

οὖν
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.
apparently a primary word; (adverb) certainly, or (conjecture) accordingly :- and (so, truly), but, now (then), so (likewise then), then, therefore, verily, wherefore.
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.
Original Sin - by ReverendRV

Exodus. 34:1 NIV
: The LORD said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke.

God used Moses to give the Ten Commandments twice; why? ~ We read earlier in Exodus that God cut the first tablets out of the mountain himself, as if they were cut out without hands. This happened on top of Mount Sinai after the Israelites had been delivered from the slavery of Egypt. God made a Covenant with Israel through the Prophet Moses, and the people would be led to the Promised Land. But while Moses was on the mountain for forty days, the people began to think he wasn’t coming back. They encouraged his brother Aaron to make them a golden Idol to be their God. When Moses and Joshua finally came down the mountain with God’s Covenant, they heard Israel reveling in their Heresy of Idolatry. Enraged, Moses cast the stone tablets to the valley floor and they were forever broken. ~ This brings to mind the Doctrine of Original Sin; the teaching that because of the Sin of our fore fathers, we are born Sinners. All we have as an inheritance is a Law which is already broken…

Even if you think this is unfair, let’s see how you would have done if you were in their shoes and had an unbroken Covenant. Have you worshipped a god other than the God of the Bible? Many have but most likely you answered ‘No’. Idolatry ‘refines’ this first Commandment; have you ever made a god to suit yourself? You say “I have never made a carved image”; but have you ever thought of God as if he were ‘for you’ instead of ‘against you’? Jesus said that if you are not with him, you are against him. Since Jesus doesn’t suit you, then you have an image of god in your Mind which suits yourself. Have you ever used God’s name in vain as a cuss word? Just how much further away can you get and still be ‘with’ God?? There are seven more Commands, do we need to continue? If God judged you by the Ten Commandments, would you be innocent or are you guilty? Be honest, remember that thousands of Israelites died the day the tablets were broken; for the ‘lone’ Sin of Idolatry. God sends guilty Sinners to a burning Hell for all eternity, and you only have a broken Covenant to work with…

God had Moses chisel out more tablets of stone so God could keep the Covenant for them. These tablets were stored within the Ark of the Covenant, which is an Old Testament ‘Type’; symbolic of Jesus Christ. The Bible tells us that Jesus ‘kept’ the Law of Moses and this means that he never Sinned; he was able to keep the Covenants God made with Adam and Israel! God made two copies of the Mosaic Covenant, and the first copy is symbolic of a prior Covenant God made with Adam; he broke the only Law he had too! You can only be represented in Adam or in Christ; by a broken Covenant or by an unbroken Covenant. Have Faith in Jesus Christ as the Risen Lord and Savior of Mankind and you will be Saved; forgiven of Sin forever! Start reading your Bible and find a local Church who will teach you about the New Covenant that God made through his Son Jesus Christ; and learn from him. ~ Learn this; Moses put three items within the Ark of the Covenant and they all symbolize Jesus. The Ten Commandments which he didn’t break, the Rod of Aaron which budded (life after death) and a jar of Manna which is the bread of Life that came down from Heaven…

Daniel 2:34 NLT: As you watched, a rock was cut from a mountain, but not by human hands. It struck the feet of iron and clay, smashing them to bits.

What about....

Gal 3:19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.
 
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