Let's apply Calvinist hermeneutics to Romans 5:19.

ReverendRV

Well-known member
What about....

Gal 3:19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.
The Law of Moses is the second of two Covenants of Works. In Deuteronomy 28, Israel promised God that if they kept the Covenant, it would be their Righteousness. No one but Jesus could do that, so the Law of Moses became his Righteousness. The Edenic Covenant was the first chance which the First Adam had, a chance to keep the Covenant of Works; and the Mosaic Covenant was a second chance the Second Adam had to keep the Covenant of Works...

In a sense, the Mosaic Covenant was truly, only for the Second Adam; Israel could NOT Keep it. But notice in Romans 5, only the Edenic Covenant and the New Covenant are mentioned; IE in Adam and in Jesus. All this can also be looked at as being in the broken Adamic Covenant (First Adam), or being in the unbroken Mosaic Covenant (Second Adam). Being in Jesus means you HAVE kept the Covenant of Works. The Covenant of Works MUST be kept, In order to be Righteous. Not one jot or tittle passed away from the Covenant of Works; until Jesus kept it, then he was Widowed to it. We are Widowers to the Covenant of Works when we're engaged to Christ and the New Covenant; then we begin to keep the Royal Law of Christ instead...
 
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TomFL

Well-known member
The Law of Moses is the second of two Covenants of Works. In Deuteronomy 28, Israel promised God that if they kept the Covenant, it would be their Righteousness. No one but Jesus could do that, so the Law of Moses became his Righteousness. The Edenic Covenant was the first chance which the First Adam had, a chance to keep a Covenant of Works; but the Mosaic Covenant was the second chance the Second Adam had to keep the Covenant of Works...

In a sense, the Mosaic Covenant was truly, only for the Second Adam; Israel could NOT Keep it. But notice in Romans 5, only the Edenic Covenant and the New Covenant are mentioned; IE in Adam and in Jesus. All this can also be looked at as being in the broken Adamic Covenant (First Adam), or being in the unbroken Mosaic Covenant (Second Adam). Being in Jesus means you HAVE kept the Covenant of Works...
The seven covenants of covenant theology

1. Adam (the Adamic Covenant) symbolized by the Ground of the Earth

2. Noah (the Noahic Covenant) symbolized by the Rainbow

3. Abraham (the Abrahamic Covenant) symbolized by the Stars

4. Palestinian (the Palestinian Covenant or Deuteronomic Covenant) symbolized by Keeping of Sabbath

5. Moses (the Mosaic Covenant) symbolized by the Two Tablets of the Law

6. David (the Davidic Covenant) symbolized by Jerusalem

7. Messiah Yeshua (the New Covenant) symbolized by the Passover Cup and Bread

1. Adamic Covenant. Found in Genesis 1:26-30 and 2:16-17, this covenant is general in nature. It included the command not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, pronounced a curse for sin, and spoke of a future provision for man's redemption (Genesis 3:15).

2. Noahic Covenant. This general covenant was made between God and Noah following the departure of Noah, his family, and the animals from the ark. Found in Genesis 9:11, "I establish my covenant with you, that never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood, and never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth." This covenant included a sign of God's faithfulness to keep it—the rainbow.

3. Abrahamic Covenant. This unconditional covenant, first made to Abraham in Genesis 12:1-3, promised God's blessing upon Abraham, to make his name great and to make his progeny into a great nation. The covenant also promised blessing to those who blessed Abraham and cursing to those who cursed him. Further, God vowed to bless the entire world through Abraham's seed. Circumcision was the sign that Abraham believed the covenant (Romans 4:11). The fulfillment of this covenant is seen in the history of Abraham's descendants and in the creation of the nation of Israel. The worldwide blessing came through Jesus Christ, who was of Abraham's family line.

4. Palestinian Covenant. This unconditional covenant, found in Deuteronomy 30:1-10, noted God's promise to scatter Israel if they disobeyed God, then to restore them at a later time to their land. This covenant has been fulfilled twice, with the Babylonian Captivity and subsequent rebuilding of Jerusalem under Cyrus the Great; and with the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, followed by the reinstatement of the nation of Israel in 1948.

5. Mosaic Covenant. This conditional covenant, found in Deuteronomy 11 and elsewhere, promised the Israelites a blessing for obedience and a curse for disobedience. Much of the Old Testament chronicles the fulfillment of this cycle of judgment for sin and later blessing when God's people repented and returned to God.

6. Davidic Covenant. This unconditional covenant, found in 2 Samuel 7:8-16, promised to bless David's family line and assured an everlasting kingdom. Jesus is from the family line of David (Luke 1:32-33) and, as the Son of David (Mark 10:47), is the fulfillment of this covenant.

7. New Covenant. This covenant, found in Jeremiah 31:31-34, promised that God would forgive sin and have a close, unbroken relationship with His people. The promise was first made to Israel and then extended to everyone who comes to Jesus Christ in faith (Matthew 26:28; Hebrews 9:15).
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
The Law of Moses is the second of two Covenants of Works. In Deuteronomy 28, Israel promised God that if they kept the Covenant, it would be their Righteousness. No one but Jesus could do that, so the Law of Moses became his Righteousness.

I disagree. Jesus never had to keep the law. He was the law giver. Jesus Christ was innately Righteous. Impeccable. The very Righteousness of God dying (being made under the law) for sinners.

The Edenic Covenant was the first chance which the First Adam had, a chance to keep the Covenant of Works; and the Mosaic Covenant was a second chance the Second Adam had to keep the Covenant of Works...

Paul's reference is to the addition of the law at Sinai. If there is any sense of an Edenic Covenant it was the promise of Jesus Christ.

Gen 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”

In a sense, the Mosaic Covenant was truly, only for the Second Adam; Israel could NOT Keep it. But notice in Romans 5, only the Edenic Covenant and the New Covenant are mentioned; IE in Adam and in Jesus. All this can also be looked at as being in the broken Adamic Covenant (First Adam), or being in the unbroken Mosaic Covenant (Second Adam). Being in Jesus means you HAVE kept the Covenant of Works. The Covenant of Works MUST be kept, In order to be Righteous. Not one jot or tittle passed away from the Covenant of Works; until Jesus kept it, then he was Widowed to it. We are Widowers to the Covenant of Works when we're engaged to Christ and the New Covenant; then we begin to keep the Royal Law of Christ instead...

Brother. The law never made anyone righteous. It was never given to make anyone righteous.

Paul clearly said that the law was added because of the unrighteous actions of Israel. As you witnessed, God called Israel to intimacy on Sinai. They FEARED God contrary to the fact that.... perfect love, casts out fear. They didn't LOVE Jehovah at Sinai. They committed one of the most despicable scenarios of sin that has ever existed in the history of humanity. They WORSHIPPED a golden image instead of the loving God that called them to intimacy on Sinai.

The law was to condemn them. To make them realize just how sinful they really were. They utterly failed to even realize this. They actually insisted they could keep ALL of it. God gave them what they ask for.
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
The seven covenants of covenant theology

1. Adam (the Adamic Covenant) symbolized by the Ground of the Earth

2. Noah (the Noahic Covenant) symbolized by the Rainbow

3. Abraham (the Abrahamic Covenant) symbolized by the Stars

4. Palestinian (the Palestinian Covenant or Deuteronomic Covenant) symbolized by Keeping of Sabbath

5. Moses (the Mosaic Covenant) symbolized by the Two Tablets of the Law

6. David (the Davidic Covenant) symbolized by Jerusalem

7. Messiah Yeshua (the New Covenant) symbolized by the Passover Cup and Bread

1. Adamic Covenant. Found in Genesis 1:26-30 and 2:16-17, this covenant is general in nature. It included the command not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, pronounced a curse for sin, and spoke of a future provision for man's redemption (Genesis 3:15).

2. Noahic Covenant. This general covenant was made between God and Noah following the departure of Noah, his family, and the animals from the ark. Found in Genesis 9:11, "I establish my covenant with you, that never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood, and never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth." This covenant included a sign of God's faithfulness to keep it—the rainbow.

3. Abrahamic Covenant. This unconditional covenant, first made to Abraham in Genesis 12:1-3, promised God's blessing upon Abraham, to make his name great and to make his progeny into a great nation. The covenant also promised blessing to those who blessed Abraham and cursing to those who cursed him. Further, God vowed to bless the entire world through Abraham's seed. Circumcision was the sign that Abraham believed the covenant (Romans 4:11). The fulfillment of this covenant is seen in the history of Abraham's descendants and in the creation of the nation of Israel. The worldwide blessing came through Jesus Christ, who was of Abraham's family line.

4. Palestinian Covenant. This unconditional covenant, found in Deuteronomy 30:1-10, noted God's promise to scatter Israel if they disobeyed God, then to restore them at a later time to their land. This covenant has been fulfilled twice, with the Babylonian Captivity and subsequent rebuilding of Jerusalem under Cyrus the Great; and with the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, followed by the reinstatement of the nation of Israel in 1948.

5. Mosaic Covenant. This conditional covenant, found in Deuteronomy 11 and elsewhere, promised the Israelites a blessing for obedience and a curse for disobedience. Much of the Old Testament chronicles the fulfillment of this cycle of judgment for sin and later blessing when God's people repented and returned to God.

6. Davidic Covenant. This unconditional covenant, found in 2 Samuel 7:8-16, promised to bless David's family line and assured an everlasting kingdom. Jesus is from the family line of David (Luke 1:32-33) and, as the Son of David (Mark 10:47), is the fulfillment of this covenant.

7. New Covenant. This covenant, found in Jeremiah 31:31-34, promised that God would forgive sin and have a close, unbroken relationship with His people. The promise was first made to Israel and then extended to everyone who comes to Jesus Christ in faith (Matthew 26:28; Hebrews 9:15).

Whether it is Covenant Theology, New Covenant Theology or Dispensationalism..... they are ALL man made distinctions. While they all contain truth, they're organization actually distracts from the Truth.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I disagree. Jesus never had to keep the law. He was the law giver. Jesus Christ was innately Righteous. Impeccable. The very Righteousness of God dying (being made under the law) for sinners.



Paul's reference is to the addition of the law at Sinai. If there is any sense of an Edenic Covenant it was the promise of Jesus Christ.

Gen 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”



Brother. The law never made anyone righteous. It was never given to make anyone righteous.

Paul clearly said that the law was added because of the unrighteous actions of Israel. As you witnessed, God called Israel to intimacy on Sinai. They FEARED God contrary to the fact that.... perfect love, casts out fear. They didn't LOVE Jehovah at Sinai. They committed one of the most despicable scenarios of sin that has ever existed in the history of humanity. They WORSHIPPED a golden image instead of the loving God that called them to intimacy on Sinai.

The law was to condemn them. To make them realize just how sinful they really were. They utterly failed to even realize this. They actually insisted they could keep ALL of it. God gave them what they ask for.
So far, that's all I've read. I think you'll find that no one here agrees with you, I would be afraid for my Salvation if I said that. It's too close to Heresy...
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
So far, that's all I've read. I think you'll find that no one here agrees with you, I would be afraid for my Salvation if I said that. It's too close to Heresy...

I figured you'd say something along those lines sooner or later......

By all means, tell me why that isn't compatible or any sense of Orthodoxy. I can tell you, you're not prepared to argue this point with me.
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
So far, that's all I've read. I think you'll find that no one here agrees with you, I would be afraid for my Salvation if I said that. It's too close to Heresy...

The very idea that Jesus Christ earned righteousness by keeping the law is an offense to Orthodoxy.

Is Jesus Christ Innately Righteous or not? Is Jesus Christ Impeccable or not?
 

squirrelyguy

Active member
Imagine you were the Author, and you wanted to write "all" there; but the Holy Ghost said "No". You might ask "Why?". Then the Spirit says, "Because Jesus is part of the 'all', so it can only be the 'many'".
Really? So when Paul quoted Psalm 53 earlier in Romans 3:10-11 saying "There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God", you think that necessarily includes Jesus? If the Holy Spirit didn't want to include Jesus, He would have inspired the writer to say "none righteous except for one", correct?

Maybe it's a more sound hermeneutical principle to assume Jesus can be excluded from the scope of words like "all", "every", "none", or "many" based on the fact that He is the only man ever born to not have an earthly father? The problem with Gill's explanation is that the explanation itself must be qualified somehow, since Romans 3:10-11 would place Jesus among the unrighteous if Gill's explanation of 5:19 is correct!
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Really? So when Paul quoted Psalm 53 earlier in Romans 3:10-11 saying "There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God", you think that necessarily includes Jesus? If the Holy Spirit didn't want to include Jesus, He would have inspired the writer to say "none righteous except for one", correct?

Maybe it's a more sound hermeneutical principle to assume Jesus can be excluded from the scope of words like "all", "every", "none", or "many" based on the fact that He is the only man ever born to not have an earthly father? The problem with Gill's explanation is that the explanation itself must be qualified somehow, since Romans 3:10-11 would place Jesus among the unrighteous if Gill's explanation of 5:19 is correct!
Gill's response is due to Paul's 'two categories' of Man. Everyone except Jesus, has been in Adam. Since even Jesus has been in Adam biologically through Mary, this means Jesus was never in Adam Covenantally...
 

civic

Well-known member
Really? So when Paul quoted Psalm 53 earlier in Romans 3:10-11 saying "There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God", you think that necessarily includes Jesus? If the Holy Spirit didn't want to include Jesus, He would have inspired the writer to say "none righteous except for one", correct?

Maybe it's a more sound hermeneutical principle to assume Jesus can be excluded from the scope of words like "all", "every", "none", or "many" based on the fact that He is the only man ever born to not have an earthly father? The problem with Gill's explanation is that the explanation itself must be qualified somehow, since Romans 3:10-11 would place Jesus among the unrighteous if Gill's explanation of 5:19 is correct!
All and many have a context just like any other word in a sentence has a context regarding its use snd meaning.

All have sinned and fallen short of Gods glory . How could Christ be included in the all ?

The same can be said of the none above and the many.

You are not seeing the forest through the trees 🌲.

People can spin the Bible to make it say anything they want. Which is why the cults are good at deception . You are questioning the very Impeccability of Christ with your ideas unless you deny He was/ is Impeccable.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Whether it is Covenant Theology, New Covenant Theology or Dispensationalism..... they are ALL man made distinctions. While they all contain truth, they're organization actually distracts from the Truth.
Based on scripture or at least should be

Their value is dependent upon their fidelity to scripture

Take the covenants for example individually most can be objectively verified by the scripture

but covenant theology is more than a recognition of seven covenant

Covenant theology emphasizes the continuity between the covenants and that emphasis has bearing on the understanding of the covenant

as opposed to dispensationalism which views disjunction between the dispensations

and that disjunction has bearing on the understanding of the dispensation

Issues of hermenuetics often also arise from ones selection of a covenantal or dispensationist theology
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
Based on scripture or at least should be

Their value is dependent upon their fidelity to scripture

Take the covenants for example individually most can be objectively verified by the scripture

but covenant theology is more than a recognition of seven covenant

Covenant theology emphasizes the continuity between the covenants and that emphasis has bearing on the understanding of the covenant

as opposed to dispensationalism which views disjunction between the dispensations

and that disjunction has bearing on the understanding of the dispensation

Issues of hermenuetics often also arise from ones selection of a covenantal or dispensationist theology

I can agree with that.....
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
Zeal is great!

Why is Galatians 4:4 not enough to show Jesus had to keep the Law? But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law...

Under the law is under the laws condemnation.

If fulfilling the law brought righteousness to us, then why did Jesus die? He could have simply keep the law perfectly for us and He wouldn't have had to die.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Under the law is under the laws condemnation.

If fulfilling the law brought righteousness to us, then why did Jesus die? He could have simply keep the law perfectly for us and He wouldn't have had to die.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
If the Like button had a 'twitching eye' emoji, I would hit it; Lol. Do you believe that Jesus was born under Condemnation? For real??

You might want to put things like that as the last sentence, because I have a hard time reading after that. I'm not trying to be rude...
 
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praise_yeshua

Well-known member
If the Like button had a 'twitching eye' emoji, I would hit it; Lol. Do you believe that Jesus was born under Condemnation? For real??

Do you believe Jesus was born UNDER the requirement to fulfill the law?

I don't see any difference in the fact these are both equally requirements within our theologies.

Yes. I believe Jesus was born to Die. Purposed for death. Slain from the foundation of the world.

You might want to put things like that as the last sentence, because I have a hard time reading after that. I'm not trying to be rude...

I don't understand. Can you restate? Sorry.

I was simply saying that the requirement was for Jesus to live righteous according to the law to save us, then why did Jesus have to die?

I see your requirement that Jesus had to fulfill the law as being unecessary and extraneous to the God's requirement of Jesus Christ.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Do you believe Jesus was born UNDER the requirement to fulfill the law?

I was simply saying that the requirement was for Jesus to live righteous according to the law to save us, then why did Jesus have to die?
Yes, all Jews are born under the requirement to keep the Law of Moses. Jesus had to die for the Wages of my Sin...
 
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