LFW in The WCF and The LBC

TomFL

Well-known member



CHAPTER IX. Of Free Will

GOD hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor by any absolute necessity of nature determined, to good or evil.
II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which is good and well-pleasing to God; but yet mutably, so that he might fall from it.c


Westminster Assembly, The Westminster Confession of Faith: Edinburgh Edition (Philadelphia: William S. Young, 1851), 59.'

and the LBC

CHAPTER 9; OF FREE WILL

Paragraph 1. God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty and power of acting upon choice, that it is neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil.1
 

Sketo

Well-known member
CHAPTER 9 (in context)

Of Free Will.

I. God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor by any absolute necessity of nature determined, to good or evil.a

a Matt. 17:12; James 1:14; Deut. 30:19.

II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which is good and well-pleasing to God;b but yet mutably, so that he might fall from it.c

b Eccl. 7:29; Gen. 1:26.
c Gen. 2:16,17; Gen. 3:6.

III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation;d so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,e and dead in sin,f is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.g

d Rom. 5:6; Rom 8:7; John 15:5.
e Rom. 3:10,12.
f Eph. 2:1,5; Col. 2:13.
g John 6:44,65; Eph. 2:2-5; 1 Cor. 2:14; Tit. 3:3-5.

IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin,h and by his grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good;i yet so as that, by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly nor only will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.k

h Col. 1:13; John 8:34,36.
i Phil. 2:13; Rom. 6:18,22.
k Gal. 5:17; Rom. 7:15,18,19,21,23.

V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to do good alone in the state of glory only.l

l Eph. 4:13; Heb. 12:23; 1 John 3:2; Jude ver. 24.
 
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Sketo

Well-known member
CHAPTER 5

Of Providence.

I. God, the great Creator of all things, doth uphold, a direct, dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things,b from the greatest even to the least,c by his most wise and holy providence,d according to his infallible foreknowledge,e and the free and immutable counsel of his own will,f to the praise of the glory of his wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy.g

a Heb. 1:3.
b Dan. 4:34,35; Ps. 135:6; Acts 17:25,26,28; Job chap. 38 to 41.
c Matt. 10:29-31.
d Prov. 15:3; Ps. 104:24; Ps. 145:17.
e Acts 15:18; Ps. 94:8-11.
f Eph. 1:11; Ps. 33:10,11.
g Isa. 63:14; Eph. 3:10 ; Rom. 9:17 ; Gen. 45:7; Ps. 145:7.

II. Although, in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first cause, all things come to pass immutably and infallibly:h yet, by the same providence, he ordereth them to fall out, according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.i

h Acts 2:23 .
i Gen. 8:22; Jer. 31:35; Exod. 21:13 with Deut. 19:5; 1 Kings 22:28 ,34; Isa. 10:6,7.

III. God in his ordinary providence maketh use of means,k yet is free to work without,l above,m and against them,n at his pleasure.

k Acts 27:31,44; Isa. 55:10,11; Hos. 2:21,22.
l Hos. 1:7; Matt. 4:4; Job 34:20.
m Rom. 4:19-21.
n 2 Kings 6:6; Dan. 3:27.

IV. The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God, so far manifest themselves in his providence, that it extendeth itself even to the first fall, and all other sins of angels and men,o and that not by a bare permission,p but such as hath joined with it a most wise and powerful bounding,q and otherwise ordering and governing of them, in a manifold dispensation, to his own holy ends;r yet so as the sinfulness thereof proceedeth only from the creature, and not from God; who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin.s

o Rom. 11:32-34; 2 Sam. 24:1 with 1 Chron. 21:1; 1 Kings 22:22 ,23; 1 Chron. 10:4,13,14; 2 Sam. 16:10 ; Acts 2:23 ; Acts 4:27 ,28.
p Acts 14:16 .
q Ps. 76:10; 2 Kings 19:28.
r Gen. 50:20; Isa. 10:6,7,12.
s James 1:13,14,17; 1 John 2:16; Ps. 50:21.

V. The most wise, righteous, and gracious God, doth oftentimes leave for a season his own children to manifold temptations, and the corruption of their own hearts, to chastise them for their former sins, or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption, and deceitfulness of their hearts, that they may be humbled;t and to raise them to a more close and constant dependence for their support upon himself, and to make them more watchful against all future occasions of sin, and for sundry other just and holy ends.u

t 2 Chron. 32:25,26,31; 2 Sam. 24:1.
u 2 Cor. 12:7-9; Ps. 73 throughout; Ps. 77:1-12; Mark 14:66 to the end, with John 21:15-17.

VI. As for those wicked and ungodly men, whom God as a righteous judge, for former sins, doth blind and harden,w from them he not only withholdeth his grace, whereby they might have been enlightened in their understandings, and wrought upon in their hearts;x but sometimes also withdraweth the gifts which they had,y and exposeth them to such objects as their corruption makes occasions of sin;z and, withal, gives them over to their own lusts, the temptations of the world, and the power of Satan:awhereby it comes to pass that they harden themselves, even under those means which God useth for the softening of others.b

w Rom. 1:24 ,26,28; Rom. 11:7,8.
x Deut. 29:4.
y Matt. 13:12; Matt. 25:29.
z Deut. 2:30; 2 Kings 8:12,13.
a Ps. 81:11,12; 2 Thess. 2:10 -12.
b Exod. 7:3 with Exod. 8:15,32; 2 Cor. 2:15,16; Isa. 8:14; 1 Pet. 2:7,8; Isa. 6:9,10 with Acts 28:26,27.

VII. As the providence of God doth, in general, reach to all creatures; so, after a most special manner, it taketh care of his church, and disposeth all things to the good thereof.c

c 1 Tim. 4:10; Amos 9:8,9; Rom. 8:28 ; Isa. 43:3-5,14.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
CHAPTER 5

Of Providence.

I. God, the great Creator of all things, doth uphold, a direct, dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things,b from the greatest even to the least,c by his most wise and holy providence,d according to his infallible foreknowledge,e and the free and immutable counsel of his own will,f to the praise of the glory of his wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy.g

CHAPTER 9 (in context)

Of Free Will.

I. God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor by any absolute necessity of nature determined, to good or evil.a

a Matt. 17:12; James 1:14; Deut. 30:19.

II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which is good and well-pleasing to God;b but yet mutably, so that he might fall from it.c

b Eccl. 7:29; Gen. 1:26.
c Gen. 2:16,17; Gen. 3:6.

III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation;d so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,e and dead in sin,f is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.g

d Rom. 5:6; Rom 8:7; John 15:5.
e Rom. 3:10,12.
f Eph. 2:1,5; Col. 2:13.
g John 6:44,65; Eph. 2:2-5; 1 Cor. 2:14; Tit. 3:3-5.

IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin,h and by his grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good;i yet so as that, by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly nor only will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.k

h Col. 1:13; John 8:34,36.
i Phil. 2:13; Rom. 6:18,22.
k Gal. 5:17; Rom. 7:15,18,19,21,23.

V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to do good alone in the state of glory only.l

l Eph. 4:13; Heb. 12:23; 1 John 3:2; Jude ver. 24.

a Heb. 1:3.
b Dan. 4:34,35; Ps. 135:6; Acts 17:25,26,28; Job chap. 38 to 41.
c Matt. 10:29-31.
d Prov. 15:3; Ps. 104:24; Ps. 145:17.
e Acts 15:18; Ps. 94:8-11.
f Eph. 1:11; Ps. 33:10,11.
g Isa. 63:14; Eph. 3:10 ; Rom. 9:17 ; Gen. 45:7; Ps. 145:7.

II. Although, in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first cause, all things come to pass immutably and infallibly:h yet, by the same providence, he ordereth them to fall out, according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.i

h Acts 2:23 .
i Gen. 8:22; Jer. 31:35; Exod. 21:13 with Deut. 19:5; 1 Kings 22:28 ,34; Isa. 10:6,7.

III. God in his ordinary providence maketh use of means,k yet is free to work without,l above,m and against them,n at his pleasure.

k Acts 27:31,44; Isa. 55:10,11; Hos. 2:21,22.
l Hos. 1:7; Matt. 4:4; Job 34:20.
m Rom. 4:19-21.
n 2 Kings 6:6; Dan. 3:27.

IV. The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God, so far manifest themselves in his providence, that it extendeth itself even to the first fall, and all other sins of angels and men,o and that not by a bare permission,p but such as hath joined with it a most wise and powerful bounding,q and otherwise ordering and governing of them, in a manifold dispensation, to his own holy ends;r yet so as the sinfulness thereof proceedeth only from the creature, and not from God; who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin.s

o Rom. 11:32-34; 2 Sam. 24:1 with 1 Chron. 21:1; 1 Kings 22:22 ,23; 1 Chron. 10:4,13,14; 2 Sam. 16:10 ; Acts 2:23 ; Acts 4:27 ,28.
p Acts 14:16 .
q Ps. 76:10; 2 Kings 19:28.
r Gen. 50:20; Isa. 10:6,7,12.
s James 1:13,14,17; 1 John 2:16; Ps. 50:21.

V. The most wise, righteous, and gracious God, doth oftentimes leave for a season his own children to manifold temptations, and the corruption of their own hearts, to chastise them for their former sins, or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption, and deceitfulness of their hearts, that they may be humbled;t and to raise them to a more close and constant dependence for their support upon himself, and to make them more watchful against all future occasions of sin, and for sundry other just and holy ends.u

t 2 Chron. 32:25,26,31; 2 Sam. 24:1.
u 2 Cor. 12:7-9; Ps. 73 throughout; Ps. 77:1-12; Mark 14:66 to the end, with John 21:15-17.

VI. As for those wicked and ungodly men, whom God as a righteous judge, for former sins, doth blind and harden,w from them he not only withholdeth his grace, whereby they might have been enlightened in their understandings, and wrought upon in their hearts;x but sometimes also withdraweth the gifts which they had,y and exposeth them to such objects as their corruption makes occasions of sin;z and, withal, gives them over to their own lusts, the temptations of the world, and the power of Satan:awhereby it comes to pass that they harden themselves, even under those means which God useth for the softening of others.b

w Rom. 1:24 ,26,28; Rom. 11:7,8.
x Deut. 29:4.
y Matt. 13:12; Matt. 25:29.
z Deut. 2:30; 2 Kings 8:12,13.
a Ps. 81:11,12; 2 Thess. 2:10 -12.
b Exod. 7:3 with Exod. 8:15,32; 2 Cor. 2:15,16; Isa. 8:14; 1 Pet. 2:7,8; Isa. 6:9,10 with Acts 28:26,27.

VII. As the providence of God doth, in general, reach to all creatures; so, after a most special manner, it taketh care of his church, and disposeth all things to the good thereof.c

c 1 Tim. 4:10; Amos 9:8,9; Rom. 8:28 ; Isa. 43:3-5,14.
And how does that change the fact that all those works teach Adam was created with libertarian free will. A fact some here deny ?

Further it needs to be asked was God any less sovereign when Adam had LFW ?
Some here seem to believe the idea that man has LFW impugns God's sovereignty

So was God any less sovereign when Adam possessed Libertarian free will ?
 

Sketo

Well-known member
And how does that change the fact that all those works teach Adam was created with libertarian free will. A fact some here deny ?

Further it needs to be asked was God any less sovereign when Adam had LFW ?
Some here seem to believe the idea that man has LFW impugns God's sovereignty

So was God any less sovereign when Adam possessed Libertarian free will ?

Man was create with a will... it’s that simple!

You add “libertarian” unnecessarily!

God and man can not both be the same kind of free... one was designed to be dependent on the other!

Man is not designed to function properly free from God!

Separation from God is what “made the many... sinners!

For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. - Romans 5:19

We are not designed to function properly while spiritually dead!

1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-
3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved-
- Ephesians 2:1-5


We are designed to be “by nature” sinners when we are free from a spiritual connection to God!

for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. - Philippians 2:13

When man is free from God working in man then man will not and work not for his good pleasure!

Man is not designed to will and work properly when free from God working in them to do so!
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
And how does that change the fact that all those works teach Adam was created with libertarian free will. A fact some here deny ?

Further it needs to be asked was God any less sovereign when Adam had LFW ?
Some here seem to believe the idea that man has LFW impugns God's sovereignty

So was God any less sovereign when Adam possessed Libertarian free will ?
Given Gods omniscience, was there any possibility Adam would not have ate the apple?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Man was create with a will... it’s that simple!

You add “libertarian” unnecessarily!

God and man can not both be the same kind of free... one was designed to be dependent on the other!

Man is not designed to function properly free from God!

Separation from God is what “made the many... sinners!

How have you answer the questions

And how does that change the fact that all those works teach Adam was created with libertarian free will. A fact some here deny ?

PS libertarian is necessary to differentiate with compatibilistic

Further it needs to be asked was God any less sovereign when Adam had LFW ?
Some here seem to believe the idea that man has LFW impugns God's sovereignty

So was God any less sovereign when Adam possessed Libertarian free will ?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Yet God knew it would occur. Created a world where it would for certain occur. Therefore its both certain and necessary.
Nope

It only makes it certain

The WCF refutes you



CHAPTER IX. Of Free Will

GOD hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor by any absolute necessity of nature determined, to good or evil.
II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which is good and well-pleasing to God; but yet mutably, so that he might fall from it.c


Westminster Assembly, The Westminster Confession of Faith: Edinburgh Edition (Philadelphia: William S. Young, 1851), 59.
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Nope

It only makes it certain

The WCF refutes you



CHAPTER IX. Of Free Will

GOD hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor by any absolute necessity of nature determined, to good or evil.
II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which is good and well-pleasing to God; but yet mutably, so that he might fall from it.c


Westminster Assembly, The Westminster Confession of Faith: Edinburgh Edition (Philadelphia: William S. Young, 1851), 59.
If its certain its then its necessary given Gods omniscience. Unless it happened for no reason?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
If its certain its then its necessary given Gods omniscience. Unless it happened for no reason?
Nope

First you ignored the WCF

And Necessity denies the possibility Adam could not sin

If Adam had not sinned God's foreknowledge would have been different
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Nope

First you ignored the WCF

And Necessity denies the possibility Adam could not sin

If Adam had not sinned God's foreknowledge would have been different
Very telling. So Gods foreknowledge is dependent on mans choices?

Is it possible Adam could not have sinned?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Nope

First you ignored the WCF

And Necessity denies the possibility Adam could not sin

If Adam had not sinned God's foreknowledge would have been different

If its certain its then its necessary given Gods omniscience. Unless it happened for no reason?
Nope

Its certain because God knew which way it would go

Necessary indicates Adam had no other choice

Were he to had decided differently God's knowledge would have been different
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Very telling. So Gods foreknowledge is dependent on mans choices?

Is it possible Adam could not have sinned?
Yes it was is possible



CHAPTER IX. Of Free Will

GOD hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor by any absolute necessity of nature determined, to good or evil.
II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which is good and well-pleasing to God; but yet mutably, so that he might fall from it.c


Westminster Assembly, The Westminster Confession of Faith: Edinburgh Edition (Philadelphia: William S. Young, 1851), 59.

as the WCF and LBC note
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Yes it was is possible



CHAPTER IX. Of Free Will

GOD hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor by any absolute necessity of nature determined, to good or evil.
II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which is good and well-pleasing to God; but yet mutably, so that he might fall from it.c


Westminster Assembly, The Westminster Confession of Faith: Edinburgh Edition (Philadelphia: William S. Young, 1851), 59.

as the WCF and LBC note
So its possible Gods foreknowledge is incorrect?
 
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