Libertarian Free Will, question

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Are there uncaused choices according to your understanding of LFW? Choices made for no reason.

What I mean by uncaused is apart from human nature or external causation such as God Himself?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Are there uncaused choices according to your understanding of LFW? Choices made for no reason.

What I mean by uncaused is apart from human nature or external causation such as God Himself?
Only the first choice by the first person could ever be said to have been made all by itself; even that person's second choice is influenced by his first choice because an Ethic was established by it. But even for God, since he is a Trinity, his first choice was influenced. God has Libertarian Free Will; but since he's a Trinity, he can't have 'Contra Causal' Libertarian Free Will. Look at the Parable of the Gardener, and you will see the Landlord and the Gardener have differing opinions...
 
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ReverendRV

Well-known member
Are there uncaused choices according to your understanding of LFW? Choices made for no reason.

What I mean by uncaused is apart from human nature or external causation such as God Himself?
The argument is always put forth that where you're raised influences you; that old 'if you were born in Arabia you'd be Muslim' notion. It's inescapable; even the Bible says 'raise up a child in the way he shall go and he shall not depart from it'. ~ This argument only matters to us, to undergird our Pet Doctrines; but only one side is real, the other side is propagandized so people will think their Side is right...
 
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Reformedguy

Well-known member
The argument is always put forth that where you're raised influences you; that old 'if you were born in Arabia you'd be Muslim' notion. It's inescapable; even the Bible says 'raise up a child in the way he shall go and he shall not depart from it'. ~ This argument only matters to us, to undergird our Pet Doctrines; but only one side is real, the other side is propagandized so people will think their Side is right...
I'm surprised none of the adherents to LFW have responded
 

PeanutGallery

Active member
Are there uncaused choices according to your understanding of LFW? Choices made for no reason.

What I mean by uncaused is apart from human nature or external causation such as God Himself?
I'm surprised none of the adherents to LFW have responded
No verses offered to check context; also, waiting for someone to offer a difference between "caused choices" and "influenced choices".
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Are there uncaused choices according to your understanding of LFW? Choices made for no reason.

What I mean by uncaused is apart from human nature or external causation such as God Himself?
In LFW there is no explination of how the final one choice is landed upon! It must remain a “mystery”!

example; 2 Choices, [A] and , go into the “mystery machine”,i.e. “will”, and out comes one!

If you ask how the “will” landed on that one instead of the other you will get nothing... except for maybe a dust cloud💨 created when they run from the question!
They can not answer, with anything other than “vague mystery”, and keep LFW-ism in tact!

This is why they wait for you to show a “cause” then twist it into a mere “influence” instead! “Cause” is not allowed into the LFW system anywhere!

This is why I compared it to a random-chance-dice-game or flip-a-coin-ism here...
A Practical Understanding of Libertarian Freewillism
 
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ReverendRV

Well-known member
I'm surprised none of the adherents to LFW have responded
When the subject is approached the right way, they sooner or later will admit that the Will is not %100 Free. Then after a while, they'll start arguing with someone else that the Will is %100 Free...

Everyone here says they're not Saved by their very own Prevenient Will; why? Because Effectual Grace always prevenes the Will, no matter what you call that Grace. When Grace makes a 'real' difference, does the Will even make a difference?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
No verses offered to check context; also, waiting for someone to offer a difference between "caused choices" and "influenced choices".
Definitions often work better than verses, because all sides have verses; on the old Forum you finally agreed that you're totally unable without Grace...
 

PeanutGallery

Active member
Definitions often work better than verses, because all sides have verses; on the old Forum you finally agreed that you're totally unable without Grace...
Unable to attain righteousness through the works of the law, or unable to obtain righteousness through faith? It's been awhile.
 

civic

Well-known member
When the subject is approached the right way, they sooner or later will admit that the Will is not %100 Free. Then after a while, they'll start arguing with someone else that the Will is %100 Free...

Everyone here says they're not Saved by their very own Prevenient Will; why? Because Effectual Grace always prevenes the Will, no matter what you call that Grace. When Grace makes a 'real' difference, does the Will even make a difference?
ditto a "free will" is a misnomer
 

TomFL

Well-known member
When the subject is approached the right way, they sooner or later will admit that the Will is not %100 Free. Then after a while, they'll start arguing with someone else that the Will is %100 Free...

Everyone here says they're not Saved by their very own Prevenient Will; why? Because Effectual Grace always prevenes the Will, no matter what you call that Grace. When Grace makes a 'real' difference, does the Will even make a difference?
No one claims the will is a 100% free

and that is not a belief of a soft libertarian free will
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Why not ?
Because no one believes the will can be 100 % true

Aside from which this has been discussed previously
I meant, why is Soft Libertarian Free Will not the result of Soft Determinism; whether the Soft Determiner is your wife or your God?

Why would your Wife's Determination not round up to Hard Determinism? DON'T SAY IT'S BECAUSE SHE'S NOT THE GREATER BEING! ;)

That won't end well at home...
 
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TomFL

Well-known member
I meant, why is Soft Libertarian Free Will not the result of Soft Determinism; whether the Soft Determiner is your wife or your God?

Why would your Wife's Determination not round up to Hard Determinism? DON'T SAY IT'S BECAUSE SHE'S NOT THE GREATER BEING! ;)

That won't end well at home...
Who believes in soft determinism ?

compatibilism is just as deterministic as hard determinism according to Calvinist own confession

John Hendryx, a compatibilistic philosopher from monergism.com, speculates: “In order to understand this better, theologians have come up with the term ‘compatibilism’ to describe the concurrence of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. Compatibilism is a form of determinism and it should be noted that this position is no less deterministic than hard determinism

Leave wives out of this you know if mama ain't happy no one is happy

:giggle::giggle::giggle:
 

TibiasDad

Active member
Are there uncaused choices according to your understanding of LFW? Choices made for no reason.

What I mean by uncaused is apart from human nature or external causation such as God Himself?

Choices are only caused by choosing. I do not equate the arguments for choosing one way or another as the cause, they are only the rationale or the influence factors, but one may choose in opposition to reason and influence, even if that reasoning and influence is the typically stronger force and following it is the typical response to it.

Why I choose something is the cause, and whatever that is, it is distinct from the influences themselves. Just as the "good pleasure of the will God" is your mantra for why God acts as he does, "the good pleasure" of anyone's desires is the ultimate cause and thus why a particular choice is made at a particular point of reference.

Paul's propositions in Romans 1 and 8 are examples:

Beginning at Rom 1:21, Paul says: For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

Which shows unregenerate man having sufficient knowledge of God and God's ways and being, and yet deliberately choosing opposite of this influence. Yes, the sinful nature is influential as well, but there is still sufficient knowledge of God. While the tendency and pattern of man's choice is in keeping with the sinful nature, not every choice is contrary to God, and many good choices are made on a regular basis.


Rom 8:12-13 show things from a believer's prospective:

Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Here, Paul says the opposite scenario is in effect. The sinful nature has been overcome so that our behaviors can now meet "all the righteous requirements of the law" by means of the Spirit that lives in us (8:4), so that we are no longer obligated to the sinful nature to obey it, but are rather obligated to the Spirit! However, we still must choose which influence we will obey and follow, "for if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live."

Either direction is a real potential, and each of us must choose which path to take at any given moment.


Doug
 
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