Libertarian Free Will, question

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Choices are only caused by choosing. I do not equate the arguments for choosing one way or another as the cause, they are only the rationale or the influence factors, but one may choose in opposition to reason and influence, even if that reasoning and influence is the typically stronger force and following it is the typical response to it.

Why I choose something is the cause, and whatever that is, it is distinct from the influences themselves. Just as the "good pleasure of the will God" is your mantra for why God acts as he does, "the good pleasure" of anyone's desires is the ultimate cause and thus why a particular choice is made at a particular point of reference.

Paul's propositions in Romans 1 and 8 are examples:

Beginning at Rom 1:21, Paul says: For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

Which shows unregenerate man having sufficient knowledge of God and God's ways and being, and yet deliberately choosing opposite of this influence. Yes, the sinful nature is influential as well, but there is still sufficient knowledge of God. While the tendency and pattern of man's choice is in keeping with the sinful nature, not every choice is contrary to God, and many good choices are made on a regular basis.


Rom 8:12-13 show things from a believer's prospective:

Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
Slaw" by means of the Spirit that lives in us (8:4), so that we are no longer obligated to the sinful nature to obey it, but are rather obligated to the Spirit! However, we still must choose which influence we will obey and follow, "for if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live."

Either direction is a real potential, and each of us must choose which path to take at any given moment.


Doug
So every choice you make there is a reason right? Something or someone causes you to choose whatever it is you choose. Can you think of a choice you made in life for no reason?
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Did God Choose to send Joseph to Egypt?
The answer is no, if you mean that he had predestined and predetermined in detail everything that happened, including all the evil intentions and desires of the brothers. However God being omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, and having a perfect foreknowledge of what the brothers were intending to do and would do, decided to exercise his power to control the events in such a way that something good would come out of it rather than evil (contrary to the evil intentions of the brothers).
 
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TomFL

Guest
Did God Choose to send Joseph to Egypt?


Do you have a verse that says he did. Off the top of my head I can't think of one

So I would have to say no if by choose you mean unilaterally determined

Certainly he would know of it and he was able to use it for a good purpose
 
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guest1

Guest
So every choice you make there is a reason right? Something or someone causes you to choose whatever it is you choose. Can you think of a choice you made in life for no reason?
I was just thinking about that with choosing to pick fruit in my backyard. I have 45 different varieties of fruit trees growing in my backyard and Citrus makes up 20 of them. They are in season now so when I go and pick some its not random as there is a reason why I'm choosing to pick one over the other, color, size, ripeness, taste etc....... all play a role in that choice. :)
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Do you have a verse that says he did. Off the top of my head I can't think of one

So I would have to say no if by choose you mean unilaterally determined

Certainly he would know of it and he was able to use it for a good purpose
Yes; Joseph's brothers meant it for Evil but God Meant it for Good. About a month ago I heard Tony Evans preach on Genesis 50:20, he was fired up saying, 'God Meant it, he Meant it, he Meant it!!!'. I don't suspect you mean like others here say we need a verbatim verse that says word for word 'God chose to send Joseph to Egypt'. God had Meaning in the same thing Joseph's brothers had Meaning in; the selling of Joseph into Slavery. God Meant it for Good, for the Saving of many lives; thus God Meant Joseph to be sent to Egypt and become the Prime Minister to save many lives...

Forgive me, sometimes I get wound up because you should have no problem believing these things, except that you're hardened to them. I wouldn't have as difficult a time showing these things to another Traditionalist. Why not just admit that God Meant Joseph to be sold? In my Mind, there's only one reason why not; because that would be all it takes for you to have to round it up to Hard Determinism. The Verse says God Meant it...
 
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TomFL

Guest
Yes; Joseph's brothers meant it for Evil but God Meant it for Good. About a month ago I heard Tony Evans preach on Genesis 50:20, he was fired up saying, 'God Meant it, he Meant it, he Meant it!!!'. I don't suspect you mean like others here say we need a verbatim verse that says word for word 'God chose to send Joseph to Egypt'. God had Meaning in the same thing Joseph's brothers had Meaning in; the selling of Joseph into Slavery. God Meant it for Good, for the Saving of many lives; thus God Meant Joseph to be sent to Egypt and become the Prime Minister to save many lives...

Forgive me, sometimes I get wound up because you should have no problem believing these things, except that you're hardened to them. I wouldn't have as difficult a time showing these things to another Traditionalist. Why not just admit that God Meant Joseph to be sold? In my Mind, there's only one reason why not; because that would be all it takes for you to have to round it up to Hard Determinism. The Verse says God Meant it...
Yes he meant it for good. Does that mean however he determined the brothers evil desire. I do not see that it does
all i see is God using the evil he knows existed in the brothers heart
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Yes he meant it for good. Does that mean however he determined the brothers evil desire. I do not see that it does
all i see is God using the evil he knows existed in the brothers heart
No, God didn't determine their Evil desire. I don't even see it as God using their Evil Desires, but using their method for Good intentions. If God used Sudan's method of selling someone into Slavery, to punish the person for a Sin; God has the Right to do so. God's Meaning wouldn't be Evil but would be Good, to punish us for Sinning; believe me, Joseph wasn't perfect and deserved punishment. ~ I know these are hard sayings...

But if a Parent doesn't punish a Child, that's Spoiling the Child. Have you ever meant it for Evil when you punished your child?


You have got to start getting this. You'd make a great Arminian if you didn't want to be a Calvinist...
 
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TomFL

Guest
No, God didn't determine their Evil desire. I don't even see it as God using their Evil Desires, but using their method for Good intentions. If God used Sudan's method of selling someone into Slavery, to punish the person for a Sin; God has the Right to do so. God's Meaning wouldn't be Evil but would be Good, to punish us for Sinning; believe me, Joseph wasn't perfect and deserved punishment. ~ I know these are hard sayings...

But if a Parent doesn't punish a Child, that's Spoiling the Child. Have you ever meant it for Evil when you punished your child?


You have got to start getting this. You'd make a great Arminian if you didn't want to be a Calvinist...
Not quite sure what you are saying here

A) God did not determine their desire

B) God did determine their desire but it was not evil
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Not quite sure what you are saying here

A) God did not determine their desire

B) God did determine their desire but it was not evil
A) Yes...
B) No. God didn't Determine their Desire at all; they did that. The 2nd LBCF says violence is not offered to the Will of the Creature...


I know that doesn't equate in your thinking, but Violence would not be offered to the Will of the Sudanese if God wanted someone to be punished for their Sin by becoming a Slave. This stuff is not that hard; except that you are hardened against it...
 
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TomFL

Guest
A) Yes...
B) No. God didn't Determine their Desire at all; they did that. The 2nd LBCF says violence is not offered to the Will of the Creature...


I know that doesn't equate in your thinking, but Violence would not be offered to the Will of the Sudanese if God wanted someone to be punished for their Sin by becoming a Slave. This stuff is not that hard; except that you are hardened against it...
Ok agreed
 

armylngst

Well-known member
When the subject is approached the right way, they sooner or later will admit that the Will is not %100 Free. Then after a while, they'll start arguing with someone else that the Will is %100 Free...

Everyone here says they're not Saved by their very own Prevenient Will; why? Because Effectual Grace always prevenes the Will, no matter what you call that Grace. When Grace makes a 'real' difference, does the Will even make a difference?
I kind of never got an answer from Tom when he presented his proof of a "middle knowledge", when I pointed out that his middle knowledge created an instance where Jesus would never be born. I mean, that's kind of bad, right?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I kind of never got an answer from Tom when he presented his proof of a "middle knowledge", when I pointed out that his middle knowledge created an instance where Jesus would never be born. I mean, that's kind of bad, right?
I've never looked at Middle Knowledge/Molinism like that!
 
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TomFL

Guest
I kind of never got an answer from Tom when he presented his proof of a "middle knowledge", when I pointed out that his middle knowledge created an instance where Jesus would never be born. I mean, that's kind of bad, right?
No middle knowledge would create no such thing

Middle knowledge creates nothing and works with possibilities

Your claim was denied
 
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TomFL

Guest
Are you part Molinist?
Part ?

You either are or you are not

Do i believe somethings that Molinism teaches Yes

But you and everyone else here probably believes something Jehovah's witnesses believe

Does that make us part JW's

I don't think so
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Part ?

You either are or you are not

Do i believe somethings that Molinism teaches Yes

But you and everyone else here probably believes something Jehovah's witnesses believe

Does that make us part JW's

I don't think so
Lol, what part of JW's? The name Jesus? Don't they believe some things like us since we're the precedent?

I don't believe any part of Molinism, but hold out the possibility it could be true because of it's similarity to some parts of Quantum Theory; what if Science ended up proving the existence of God that way?
 
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TomFL

Guest
Lol, what part of JW's? The name Jesus?

I don't believe any part of Molinism, but hold out the possibility it could be true because of it's similarity to some parts of Quantum Theory; what if Science ended up proving the existence of God that way?
Jehovah

God is all powerful, all knowing, is a spirit etc
 
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