Libertarian Free Will, question

His clay

Well-known member
You have established no need for other than self in a free choice

You seem to be laboring under some assumption

Otherwise than what ?

Are you assuming there existed but one possible choice ?

what ?
Tom, it is obvious that you are flailing, since your last post resorted to a straw man, and now the post quoted above is resorting to all sorts of contortions, as evidenced below.
(1) Establishment of need is not an issue that I raised. It is largely irrelevant to my point (red herring fallacy).
(2) You state, "You seem to be laboring under some assumption." I have already stated my assumptions (law of identity + your statement = conclusion of no longer able to do otherwise). Your assertion here is arbitrary; you need to point out an actual, real assumption (specific), rather than arbitrarily asserting that there is one (general).
(3) "Otherwise than what?" Did you forget that the "ability to do otherwise" is an essential characteristic of libertarian freedom? You don't seem to be following this discussion very well.
(4) Regarding the comment, "Are you assuming there existed but one possible choice ?" What I am assuming is what has been stated. Please try to deal with what I have stated, rather than just making stuff up. Thanks.

I see nothing that deals with my point. Which is that given your own deterministic assumption--"The chooser is the cause of the choice"--in addition to the law identity applied to the chooser, then it follows that the choice could not be otherwise if caused by only one chooser with only the characteristics possessed at the moment of choice.

Since the discussion has obviously degenerated badly, I'm moving on. It was interesting, but I'm not going to keep dealing with hordes of straw men and arbitrary assertions. God bless. :)
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Tom, it is obvious that you are flailing, since your last post resorted to a straw man, and now the post quoted above is resorting to all sorts of contortions, as evidenced below.
(1) Establishment of need is not an issue that I raised. It is largely irrelevant to my point (red herring fallacy).
(2) You state, "You seem to be laboring under some assumption." I have already stated my assumptions (law of identity + your statement = conclusion of no longer able to do otherwise). Your assertion here is arbitrary; you need to point out an actual, real assumption (specific), rather than arbitrarily asserting that there is one (general).
(3) "Otherwise than what?" Did you forget that the "ability to do otherwise" is an essential characteristic of libertarian freedom? You don't seem to be following this discussion very well.
(4) Regarding the comment, "Are you assuming there existed but one possible choice ?" What I am assuming is what has been stated. Please try to deal with what I have stated, rather than just making stuff up. Thanks.

I see nothing that deals with my point. Which is that given your own deterministic assumption--"The chooser is the cause of the choice"--in addition to the law identity applied to the chooser, then it follows that the choice could not be otherwise if caused by only one chooser with only the characteristics possessed at the moment of choice.

Since the discussion has obviously degenerated badly, I'm moving on. It was interesting, but I'm not going to keep dealing with hordes of straw men and arbitrary assertions. God bless. :)
Rather it is obvious

Your offer no explanation for a need for another source and now you are resorting to rhetoric

You can appeal to the law of identity all you want but if you don't show need for another you have nothing

Are you telling me you never made a decision before that was not determined or that you needed another to make that decision for you

It makes no sense

Other than that you rail against the very definition of a free choice

A choice that is free from external determination
 
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T

TomFL

Guest
Tom, it is obvious that you are flailing, since your last post resorted to a straw man, and now the post quoted above is resorting to all sorts of contortions, as evidenced below.
(1) Establishment of need is not an issue that I raised. It is largely irrelevant to my point (red herring fallacy).
(2) You state, "You seem to be laboring under some assumption." I have already stated my assumptions (law of identity + your statement = conclusion of no longer able to do otherwise). Your assertion here is arbitrary; you need to point out an actual, real assumption (specific), rather than arbitrarily asserting that there is one (general).
(3) "Otherwise than what?" Did you forget that the "ability to do otherwise" is an essential characteristic of libertarian freedom? You don't seem to be following this discussion very well.
(4) Regarding the comment, "Are you assuming there existed but one possible choice ?" What I am assuming is what has been stated. Please try to deal with what I have stated, rather than just making stuff up. Thanks.

I see nothing that deals with my point. Which is that given your own deterministic assumption--"The chooser is the cause of the choice"--in addition to the law identity applied to the chooser, then it follows that the choice could not be otherwise if caused by only one chooser with only the characteristics possessed at the moment of choice.

Since the discussion has obviously degenerated badly, I'm moving on. It was interesting, but I'm not going to keep dealing with hordes of straw men and arbitrary assertions. God bless. :)
Moving on ?

That you have presented An intelligible argument has yet to be established

Are you suggesting that the lack of an alternative possibility negates the idea that the chooser was the reason for the choice ?

That is a non sequitur

You have done nothing to show the law of identity has any bearing on the possibility of an alternative choice
 

Kampioen

Well-known member
Are there uncaused choices according to your understanding of LFW? Choices made for no reason.

What I mean by uncaused is apart from human nature or external causation such as God Himself?
There are no causes outside the nature, ie the choices have no outside reason. They are by God's creation self-caused non-arbitrary choices in the nature, like God also has LFW to say create the universe or not.
 
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TomFL

Guest
Are there uncaused choices according to your understanding of LFW? Choices made for no reason.

What I mean by uncaused is apart from human nature or external causation such as God Himself?
No the cause of the choice is the chooser
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
There are no causes outside the nature, ie the choices have no outside reason. They are by God's creation self-caused non-arbitrary choices in the nature, like God also has LFW to say create the universe or not.
God has LFW? So how is it he cannot lie then?
 

Kampioen

Well-known member
God has LFW? So how is it he cannot lie then?
Except for sin, God has libertarian free will, say for example to create the universe or not or how to create it. God has libertarian will within parameters by nature, like us.
 
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TibiasDad

Well-known member
Do you freely choose to pay your taxes? Why? Because you are coerced to do so under the threat of jail time

But some choose to not pay their taxes freely too, coercion notwithstanding! We sometimes go against what we should do, despite the penalty.

Doug
 

zerinus

Well-known member
And you do that because that is what is most pleasing to you. ;) :) :D
So you reckon people do what they want to do. Sure. No argument. But that is not the issue with Calvinism. Calvinism teaches that what you “want” has been predetermined by God. In other words, what you “want” is not what you really “want,” but what God wants you to “want”. That is the heresy of Calvinism, which is entirely false.
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
And you do that because that is what is most pleasing to you. ;) :) :D

But Reformedguy said that we are coerced, forced to do so. We aren't coerced or forced to do anything, whether we pay or don't pay we do what we choose to do for our own reasons, not because someone says we have to or else. Adam did what he did in spite of knowing what the consequences were. What is pleasing is not the issue, its a question of who is determining whether I pay my taxes or not!

Merry Christmas!

Doug
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
But Reformedguy said that we are coerced, forced to do so. We aren't coerced or forced to do anything, whether we pay or don't pay we do what we choose to do for our own reasons, not because someone says we have to or else. Adam did what he did in spite of knowing what the consequences were. What is pleasing is not the issue, its a question of who is determining whether I pay my taxes or not!

Merry Christmas!

Doug

One of the applications of helko is to literally drag off. It also means to lead, impel, draw by an inward power.

ουδεις δυναται ελθειν προς με εαν μη ο πατηρ ο πεμψας με ελκυση αυτον καγω αναστησω αυτον εν τη εσχατη ημερα[John 6:44]

That is in the Aorist Active Subjunctive and is 3rd Person Singular. Now, I got this off of Blue Letter Bible's website. I have dabbled in Greek somewhat, having Dr. William Mounce's "Greek For the Rest of Us". Also, it is a verb that means there's action being involved. It's not just a 'wooing', but something forceful taking place.


Merry Christmas to you, too.
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
One of the applications of helko is to literally drag off. It also means to lead, impel, draw by an inward power.

ουδεις δυναται ελθειν προς με εαν μη ο πατηρ ο πεμψας με ελκυση αυτον καγω αναστησω αυτον εν τη εσχατη ημερα[John 6:44]

That is in the Aorist Active Subjunctive and is 3rd Person Singular. Now, I got this off of Blue Letter Bible's website. I have dabbled in Greek somewhat, having Dr. William Mounce's "Greek For the Rest of Us". Also, it is a verb that means there's action being involved. It's not just a 'wooing', but something forceful taking place.


Merry Christmas to you, too.

My former girlfriends wooed me pretty powerfully, but they have not been my wife for the last 39.5 years! ἑλκύω, in the figurative application is not meek, but it is loving and non-obligatory.


Doug
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
My former girlfriends wooed me pretty powerfully, but they have not been my wife for the last 39.5 years! ἑλκύω, in the figurative application is not meek, but it is loving and non-obligatory.


Doug
But you cannot compare those wooings to the drawing of God. It's not just Him wooing, but something much more powerful, much more forceful than that. In Matthew 18:12-14, we see the parable of the shepherd and the sheep that went astray. He did not merely call out for him, but searched for him. And when he found his sheep that went astray, he put him on his shoulders and brought him back into the sheepfold. This also includes Luke 15, the part of him putting that sheep on his shoulders.
 
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