Libertarian Free Will, question

zerinus

Well-known member
But you cannot compare those wooings to the drawing of God. It's not just Him wooing, but something much more powerful, much more forceful than that. In Matthew 18:12-14, we see the parable of the shepherd and the sheep that went astray. He did not merely call out for him, but searched for him. And when he found his sheep that went astray, he put him on his shoulders and brought him back into the sheepfold. This also includes Luke 15, the part of him putting that sheep on his shoulders.
That is a parable. A parable is not meant to be taken literally, but the object lesson behind it needs to be understood correctly and taken seriously. The object lesson of this parable is not freewill vs. predestination. The object lesson is that there is more joy in heaven over one sinner that repents, than over 99 just persons that have no need of repentance. Now if the sinner has been “predestined” by God to repent, what is there to “rejoice” over if he inevitably and irresistibly does what he is “predestined” to do?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
That is a parable. A parable is not meant to be taken literally, but the object lesson behind it needs to be understood correctly and taken seriously. The object lesson of this parable is not freewill vs. predestination. The object lesson is that there is more joy in heaven over one sinner that repents, than over 99 just persons that have no need of repentance. Now if the sinner has been “predestined” by God to repent, what is there to “rejoice” over if he inevitably and irresistibly does what he is “predestined” to do?
The rejoicing is for the man who found His Lost Sheep, His finding the Lost Sheep is the repentance given to the Sheep. The rejoicing is for the success of the Shepherd or Man who found His lost Sheep. This Joy was for the Shepherd was predestined Heb 12:2

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

That word set " set before him " is the word prokeimai:

to be appointed, destined

So thats the Joy in Heaven over a repented sinner Lk 15 7

7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
My former girlfriends wooed me pretty powerfully, but they have not been my wife for the last 39.5 years! ἑλκύω, in the figurative application is not meek, but it is loving and non-obligatory.

Doug

Sorry, but you don't know the first thing about Greek, and you don't get to REDEFINE words you don't know the meaning of, just to try to support your false doctrines.

"ἑλκύω," has absolutely no connotation of any aspect of "loving", and it is ALWAYS efficacious.

Here various uses of the term, both in English and in Biblical context:

"draw a gun"
"with-drawl"
"draw a sword"
"draw blood"
"draw blinds"
"draw interest"
"draw curtains"
"draw a breath"
"draw a cheque"
"the honey drew flies";
“the light drew moths”;
"the enemy drew fire";
"horse-drawn carriage";
"draw the short straw"
"draw on a bank account";
"draw water from a well"
"amount of power drawn";
"draw a card from a deck”
"draw a bow" (archery);
"the college drew students";
"the performance drew cheers";
"draw-er" (you drag/pull it open);
"draw" (winning ticket) for a 50/50 draw;
"the prisoner was drawn and quartered";
“draw on a cigarette" ("take a draw");


Deut. 21:3 a heifer that...has not pulled <ἑλκύω> in a yoke.
2Sam. 22:17 he drew <ἑλκύω> me out of many waters.
1 Mac 10:82 Then brought <ἑλκύω> Simon forth his host,
3 Mac 5:49 infants drew <ἑλκύω> what seemed their last milk [from the breast].
4 Mac 11:9 the spearbearers bound him, and drew <ἑλκύω> him to the catapelt:
Ps. 10:9 he seizes the poor when he draws <ἑλκύω> him into his net.
Ps. 119:131 I open my mouth and pant <ἑλκύω pneuma>, lit. "draw air"
Eccl. 2:3 how to cheer my body with wine (lit., "draw <ἑλκύω> wine into my body"
Job 20:28 The possessions of his house will be carried away, <ἑλκύω>
Job 39:10 or will he harrow <ἑλκύω> the valleys after you? (lit. "drag your furrows")
Sir. 28:19 who hath not drawn <ἑλκύω> the yoke thereof,
Hab. 1:15 he drags <ἑλκύω> them out with his net;
Isa. 10:15 [shall] the saw magnify itself against him who wields <ἑλκύω> it?
Jer. 14:6 they pant <ἑλκύω> for air (lit. "draw air") like jackals;
Jer. 38:13 Then they drew <ἑλκύω> Jeremiah up with ropes
John 18:10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew <ἑλκύω> it
John 21:6 So they cast [the net], and now they were not able to haul <ἑλκύω> it in
John 21:11 So Simon Peter went aboard and hauled <ἑλκύω> the net ashore
Acts 16:19 they seized Paul and Silas and dragged <ἑλκύω> them into the marketplace
Acts 21:30 They seized Paul and dragged <ἑλκύω> him out of the temple
James 2:6 the ones who drag <ἑλκύω> you into court?


Now, when a cowboy pulls at his gun, but it doesn't come out of its holster, you don't say he "drew" it. You only say he "drew" it if it CAME out of his holster.

If a dying man tries to breathe, and no air goes in, you don't say that he "drew" a breath. You only say it if the air SUCCESSFULLY went it.

When a woman tugs at a rope attached to a bucket of water, and it gets stuck, you don't say she "drew" the water. You only say she "drew" the water if it comes out of the well.

And so on.
 

TibiasDad

Active member
The rejoicing is for the man who found His Lost Sheep, His finding the Lost Sheep is the repentance given to the Sheep. The rejoicing is for the success of the Shepherd or Man who found His lost Sheep. This Joy was for the Shepherd was predestined Heb 12:2

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

That word set " set before him " is the word prokeimai:

to be appointed, destined

So thats the Joy in Heaven over a repented sinner Lk 15 7

7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

<Sigh> The joy is over or for the one sinner who repents as opposed to for those who do not need to repent. Certainly, there is joy for Christ, or rather that Christ finds joy in the sinner coming to him, but the object of the rejoicing in Luke 15:7 is the repentant sinner, not the savior.


Doug
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
<Sigh> The joy is over or for the one sinner who repents as opposed to for those who do not need to repent. Certainly, there is joy for Christ, or rather that Christ finds joy in the sinner coming to him, but the object of the rejoicing in Luke 15:7 is the repentant sinner, not the savior.


Doug
I disagree. The joy is in heaven. The repentant sinner is not in heaven yet. The Saviour is Lk 15 7

7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Even if there is joy in heaven for the repentance of the lost Sheep, the repentance is credited to the Shepherd that found the Lost Sheep.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I disagree. The joy is in heaven. The repentant sinner is not in heaven yet. The Saviour is Lk 15 7

7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Even if there is joy in heaven for the repentance of the lost Sheep, the repentance is credited to the Shepherd that found the Lost Sheep.
Your reference supports him
 

TibiasDad

Active member
I disagree. The joy is in heaven. The repentant sinner is not in heaven yet. The Saviour is Lk 15 7

7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Even if there is joy in heaven for the repentance of the lost Sheep, the repentance is credited to the Shepherd that found the Lost Sheep.

You don't behave a grammatical leg on which stand.

Doug
 

TomFL

Well-known member
You don't behave a grammatical leg on which stand.

Doug
The poster even quotes the verse


7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
 

TibiasDad

Active member
I disagree. The main point in any case is the Shepherd finding the lost Sheep is it's repentance. All the credit goes to the Shepherds successful work.

The issue is not the credit, the issue is the focal point of the rejoicing in heaven! I have not implied that the credit goes to man. Heaven rejoices when one sinner repents. One repentance causes heaven to rejoice over it.

Doug
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
The issue is not the credit, the issue is the focal point of the rejoicing in heaven! I have not implied that the credit goes to man. Heaven rejoices when one sinner repents. One repentance causes heaven to rejoice over it.

Doug
I disagree, the issue is the Shepherd finding His lost Sheep, and He getting the credit. Repentance comes from the Shepherds successful work.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
I disagree, the issue is the Shepherd finding His lost Sheep, and He getting the credit. Repentance comes from the Shepherds successful work.
I will tell you why you are wrong. The same chapter, starting at verse 11, contains another parable, the parable of the prodigal son, teaching the same object lesson as the parable of the lost sheep, but looked at it from a different perspective. In this parable too the father “rejoices” over his repentant son (who had squandered his wealth). So the object lesson is the same—rejoicing over a repentant sinner. The only difference is that in this case, nobody “goes after” the prodigal son. He comes to repentance of his own accord, after discovering the errors of his ways, as a result of his own experiences, rather than anybody going and searching for him. But the focal point of the parable is still the same—rejoicing over a repentant sinner—rather than who “found him” or brought him to repentance.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
I will tell you why you are wrong. The same chapter, starting at verse 11, contains another parable, the parable of the prodigal son, teaching the same object lesson as the parable of the lost sheep, but looked at it from a different perspective. In this parable too the father “rejoices” over his repentant son (who had squandered his wealth). So the object lesson is the same—rejoicing over a repentant sinner. The only difference is that in this case, nobody “goes after” the prodigal son. He comes to repentance of his own accord, after discovering the errors of his ways, as a result of his own experiences, rather than anybody going and searching for him. But the focal point of the parable is still the same—rejoicing over a repentant sinner—rather than who “found him” or brought him to repentance.
The prod son the Father gets the credit. The lost coin the Spirit gets the credit. Each case God is getting the credit, not the one being found
 

zerinus

Well-known member
The prod son the Father gets the credit. The lost coin the Spirit gets the credit. Each case God is getting the credit, not the one being found
God gets the credit for atoning for his sins, thus making his redemption and salvation possible through faith and repentance; he gets the credit for believing, exercising faith, and repenting. Without that Atonement, faith and repentance would not even be possible. But being enabled by the Atonement, the choice, the freewill choice and decision to believe and repent is entirely his; and he gets the credit for applying it in his life.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
The prod son the Father gets the credit. The lost coin the Spirit gets the credit. Each case God is getting the credit, not the one being found
The person who gets the credit in the parable of the prodigal son is not the same person who the rejoicing is over. You are mixing oranges and apples
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
God gets the credit for atoning for his sins, thus making his redemption and salvation possible through faith and repentance; he gets the credit for believing, exercising faith, and repenting. Without that Atonement, faith and repentance would not even be possible. But being enabled by the Atonement, the choice, the freewill choice and decision to believe and repent is entirely his; and he gets the credit for applying it in his life.
Not making possible salvation or redemption but credit for effecting redemption or salvation. Your statement shortchanged the work of God in Salvation and redemption.
 
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