Libertarian Free Will, question

TomFL

Well-known member
Not making possible salvation or redemption but credit for effecting redemption or salvation. Your statement shortchanged the work of God in Salvation and redemption.
Your statement is not biblical

John 1:12 —ESV
“But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,”

Eph. 1:13 —ESV
“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,”

John 3:14–18 —ESV
“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.¶ “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.”

John 5:24 —ESV
“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.”
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Sorry, but you don't know the first thing about Greek, and you don't get to REDEFINE words you don't know the meaning of, just to try to support your false doctrines.

"ἑλκύω," has absolutely no connotation of any aspect of "loving", and it is ALWAYS efficacious.

Here various uses of the term, both in English and in Biblical context:

"draw a gun"
"with-drawl"
"draw a sword"
"draw blood"
"draw blinds"
"draw interest"
"draw curtains"
"draw a breath"
"draw a cheque"
"the honey drew flies";
“the light drew moths”;
"the enemy drew fire";
"horse-drawn carriage";
"draw the short straw"
"draw on a bank account";
"draw water from a well"
"amount of power drawn";
"draw a card from a deck”
"draw a bow" (archery);
"the college drew students";
"the performance drew cheers";
"draw-er" (you drag/pull it open);
"draw" (winning ticket) for a 50/50 draw;
"the prisoner was drawn and quartered";
“draw on a cigarette" ("take a draw");


Deut. 21:3 a heifer that...has not pulled <ἑλκύω> in a yoke.
2Sam. 22:17 he drew <ἑλκύω> me out of many waters.
1 Mac 10:82 Then brought <ἑλκύω> Simon forth his host,
3 Mac 5:49 infants drew <ἑλκύω> what seemed their last milk [from the breast].
4 Mac 11:9 the spearbearers bound him, and drew <ἑλκύω> him to the catapelt:
Ps. 10:9 he seizes the poor when he draws <ἑλκύω> him into his net.
Ps. 119:131 I open my mouth and pant <ἑλκύω pneuma>, lit. "draw air"
Eccl. 2:3 how to cheer my body with wine (lit., "draw <ἑλκύω> wine into my body"
Job 20:28 The possessions of his house will be carried away, <ἑλκύω>
Job 39:10 or will he harrow <ἑλκύω> the valleys after you? (lit. "drag your furrows")
Sir. 28:19 who hath not drawn <ἑλκύω> the yoke thereof,
Hab. 1:15 he drags <ἑλκύω> them out with his net;
Isa. 10:15 [shall] the saw magnify itself against him who wields <ἑλκύω> it?
Jer. 14:6 they pant <ἑλκύω> for air (lit. "draw air") like jackals;
Jer. 38:13 Then they drew <ἑλκύω> Jeremiah up with ropes
John 18:10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew <ἑλκύω> it
John 21:6 So they cast [the net], and now they were not able to haul <ἑλκύω> it in
John 21:11 So Simon Peter went aboard and hauled <ἑλκύω> the net ashore
Acts 16:19 they seized Paul and Silas and dragged <ἑλκύω> them into the marketplace
Acts 21:30 They seized Paul and dragged <ἑλκύω> him out of the temple
James 2:6 the ones who drag <ἑλκύω> you into court?


Now, when a cowboy pulls at his gun, but it doesn't come out of its holster, you don't say he "drew" it. You only say he "drew" it if it CAME out of his holster.

If a dying man tries to breathe, and no air goes in, you don't say that he "drew" a breath. You only say it if the air SUCCESSFULLY went it.

When a woman tugs at a rope attached to a bucket of water, and it gets stuck, you don't say she "drew" the water. You only say she "drew" the water if it comes out of the well.

And so on.
Except

W.E. Vine This less violent significance, usually present in helkō, but always absent from surō, is seen in the metaphorical use of helkō, to signify drawing by inward power, by Divine impulse, John 6:44; 12:32. So in the Sept., e.g., S. of S., 1:4, and Jer. 31:3, “with lovingkindness have I drawn thee1

• Spiros Zodhiates, Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible, “Helkuo is used of Jesus on the cross drawing by His love, not force (Jn. 6:44; 12:32)” [New Testament Lexical Aids].

• A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature: Helkuo – “to draw or attract a person in the direction of values for inner life” attract J 6:44″ [Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker].

• The Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament: helkuo is used metaphorically “to draw mentally and morally, John 6:44; 12:32” [William Mounce].

• Theological Dictionary of the New Testament: “There is no thought here of force or magic. The term figuratively expresses the supernatural power of the love of God or Christ which goes out to all (12:32) but without which no one can come (6:44). The apparent contradiction shows that both the election and the universality of grace must be taken seriously; the compulsion is not automatic” [Kittel, one-vol., abridged)

• The Greek-English Lexicon to the New Testament: “met., to draw, i.e. to attract, Joh. xii. 32. Cf. Joh. vi. 44” [W.J. Hickie].

• The Complete Word Study Dictionary New testament: Helkuo – “To draw toward without necessarily the notion of force… Is used by Jesus of the drawing of souls unto Him (Joh 6:44; 12:32, to draw or induce to come) [Spiros Zodhiates]

• The Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament: “figuratively, of a strong pull in the mental or moral life draw, attract (JN 6.44)”. [Timothy Friberg, Barbara Friberg, and Neva F. Miller]

When helkuo is examined by the best attested Greek scholarship, as used in John 6, we find that the consistent rendering does not in any way determine its usage to mean “drag” or “force”, and actually militates against that meaning altogether. Hence, the most accurate meaning of helkuo would be to draw – in the sense of God attracting and enabling people towards Christ. This fits perfectly with both chapter 6, and with 12:32, wherein all of the N.T. Greek lexicons and dictionaries collectively agree, removing any ambiguity or doubt to be considered. Of the theologians who have rendered John 6:44 to exclusively mean drag, they have demonstrated a clear lack of exegetical research and evidence to validate their conclusions. These individuals never appeal to multiple and varied lexical references; wherein, they consistently point to other verses (which we have previously cited) that categorically do not fit the context of John 6 and grossly violate the basic rules of grammar and syntax. Brian Wagner
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Your statement is not biblical

John 1:12 —ESV
“But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,”

Eph. 1:13 —ESV
“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,”

John 3:14–18 —ESV
“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.¶ “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.”

John 5:24 —ESV
“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.”
Sure its biblical, The Work of the Triune God effects Salvation for the Sheep.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Sure its biblical, The Work of the Triune God effects Salvation for the Sheep.
The sheep are followers not men unconditionally elected

Your statement is not biblical

John 1:12 —ESV
“But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,”

Eph. 1:13 —ESV
“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,”

John 3:14–18 —ESV
“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.¶ “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.”

John 5:24 —ESV
“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.”
 

TomFL

Well-known member
So could God choose to lie? Does have have the ability to lie?
'
God's nature does not allow him to lie

Num. 23:19 —NASB
““God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent;”

It does not effect his LFW in the least

Psa. 115:3 —NASB
“But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.”
 

TomFL

Well-known member
You can be a coerced free choice. Taxes come to mind.

I just did
Nope

If a thing is coerced it is not free

All you did is redefine the word free removing the idea presented below'

from its definition

enjoying personal freedom : not subject to the control or domination of another
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Nope

If a thing is coerced it is not free

All you did is redefine the word free removing the idea presented below'

from its definition

enjoying personal freedom : not subject to the control or domination of another
So you dont freely choose to pay your taxes? There is no choice there? Join us here in the real world
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
God's nature does not allow him to lie

Num. 23:19 —NASB
““God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent;”

It does not effect his LFW in the least

Psa. 115:3 —NASB
“But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.”
Oh so God does not have LFW then right? He is not able to chose to sin right?

He does whatever He pleased within the divine nature as you stated. You are a walking contradiction
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Oh so God does not have LFW then right? He is not able to chose to sin right?

He does whatever He pleased within the divine nature as you stated. You are a walking contradiction
Wrong

Where did you read any such thing in my reply ?

You did not

Contradictions exist only in your mind here
 
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