Libertarian Free Will, question

[TomFL]

Again, your free to choose not to pay your takes. You are coerced to choose to do so under the threat of penalty

Sorry you are not free Government compulsion and the fear of arrest and other penalties makes it so

 

[zerinus]

Its not coerced? lol What happens if you dont pay your taxes?

You still have the choice. Just because there are consequences, it does not follow that you don't have the choice.

 

[Theo1689]

You still have the choice. Just because there are consequences, it does not follow that you don't have the choice.

Can you define what you mean by "choice"?

How does "choice" relate to "will"?
How does "choice" relate to "determination"?

I think you are making some unsubstantiated assumptions in your understanding, and if you won't discuss them, you can't confirm them true or false.

If a man points a gun to your head, and tells you to give him all your money or else he'll kill you, is he giving you a "free choice"?

 

[zerinus]

Oh so God does not have LFW then right? He is not able to chose to sin right?

He does have the choice, but he would cease to be divine if he did, and he likes being God more than sinning. He thinks it is more fun to be God.

 

[zerinus]

It is not a free choice being coerced

Make tax paying optional and see what happens

The freedom is still there. Just because there are consequences, it does not mean that the freedom is not there.

 

[Theo1689]

He does have the choice, but he would cease to be divine if he did, and he likes being God more than sinning. He thinks it is more fun to be God.

So God could be "demoted" from being God?!
By whom?!

 

[zerinus]

EXACTLY. So your coerced into paying them under threat of penalty. You could choose not to of course. Your free to choose either way

That is a contradictory statement. If you are “free to choose either way,” then you are not “coerced”.

 

[TomFL]

The freedom is still there. Just because there are consequences, it does not mean that the freedom is not there.

That is not freedom

If a thing is coerced it is not free

 

[zerinus]

No not free

There is still coercion

Not correct. True coercion would prevent you from not paying no matter what. The fact that there are consequences, is not quite the same as being coerced. In ancient Rome, the penalty for converting to Christianity was death. But many people still converted, notwithstanding the consequences, and suffered the consequences, proving that they were not “coerced”.

 

[Theo1689]

Not correct. True coercion would prevent you from not paying no matter what. The fact that there are consequences, is not quite the same as being coerced.

Seriously?!

So if someone approaches you with a gun, and threatens to shoot you if you don't hand him all your money, then if you "choose" to give him all your money, he's not guilty of theft, since you "chose" to give him money?

Is that SERIOUSLY your position?


"This is your brain."
"This is your brain on Mormonism."

 

[zerinus]

And some choices are coerced yet free as my example shows.

That is a contradictory statement something cannot be coerced and free at the same time. There being consequences is not quite the same as being coerced.

 

[Reformedguy]

That is a contradictory statement something cannot be coerced and free at the same time. There being consequences is not quite the same as being coerced.

Its not contradictory, its real life.

 

[zerinus]

Again, your free to choose not to pay your takes. You are coerced to choose to do so under the threat of penalty

You haven't learned to choose your words carefully enough. It is possible to say what you are trying to say without being self-contradictory.

 

[Reformedguy]

Sorry you are not free Government compulsion and the fear of arrest and other penalties makes it so

So your compelled to make a choice. You still have a choice. Keep trying

 

[TomFL]

Not correct. True coercion would prevent you from not paying no matter what. The fact that there are consequences, is not quite the same as being coerced. In ancient Rome, the penalty for converting to Christianity was death. But many people still converted, notwithstanding the consequences, and suffered the consequences, proving that they were not “coerced”.

Threats of Jail are not real coercion to you ?

Threats of exorbitant fines neither ?

We definitely disagree

 

[Reformedguy]

He does have the choice, but he would cease to be divine if he did, and he likes being God more than sinning. He thinks it is more fun to be God.

So He restrains Himself so He can remain divine? How silly

 

[zerinus]

Threats of Jail are not real coercion to you ?

Threats of exorbitant fines neither ?

We definitely disagree

How about the penalty of death (by torture)? It couldn't get any worse than that, right? But many Christians still converted, and suffered the consequences, proving what? You guessed right, that they were not “coerced”. See how easy that was?

 

[zerinus]

So He restrains Himself so He can remain divine? How silly

Not silly at all. The Bible says that God “cannot lie”. Does that mean that he is not “omnipotent” enough to be able to lie, if he really wanted to? How silly is that?

 

[Reformedguy]

Not silly at all. The Bible says that God “cannot lie”. Does that mean that he is not omnipotent enough to lie if he wanted to? How silly is that?

That simply means He is not able to lie. What does omnipotent have to do with morality? Like I said, so silly.

 

[zerinus]

That simply means He is not able to lie. What does omnipotent have to do with morality? Like I said, so silly.

“Omnipotence” means that he can do anything that he wants, including sinning, being evil, and telling lies. The fact that he can't do those things means that something else is at play that prevents him from acting as such. What do you think that might be?