Libertarian Free Will, question

TomFL

Well-known member
How about the penalty of death (by torture)? It couldn't get any worse than that, right? But many Christians still converted, and suffered the consequences, proving what? You guessed right, that they were not “coerced”. See how easy that was?
That is true but coercion is still coercion

and that just shows that sometimes coercion may be overcome not the decision was free from coercion which is the definition of free
 

zerinus

Well-known member
That is true but coercion is still coercion

and that just shows that sometimes coercion may be overcome not the decision was free from coercion which is the definition of free
Nobody likes losing an argument. That is true. But you can't win by being illogical. That is a fact. You can't get round that.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Coerced is not free
I never said it was. I am arguing against your view that there being consequences to choices and decisions amounts to a coercion. It may be a deterrent, but not a coercion. They are not the same.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I never said it was. I am arguing against your view that there being consequences to choices and decisions amounts to a coercion. It may be a deterrent, but not a coercion. They are not the same.
Well if you never stated it you have no argument

Coercion

the practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats.

Paying taxes fits
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
“Omnipotence” means that he can do anything that he wants, including sinning, being evil, and telling lies. The fact that he can't do those things means that something else is at play that prevents him from acting as such. What do you think that might be?
Omnipotence means all powerful. lol It has nothing to do with morality.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Sure I did. Morality has nothing to do with being all powerful. You have committed a category error.
Still not answering the question. Everybody can see that, and can draw their own conclusions. The question is not about whether omnipotence has anything to do with morality or not. The question is about how he can be omnipotent, and still not be able to do certain things, like it says in the Bible; such as telling lies, being dishonest, evil, immoral, or unjust etc. Either he is not omnipotent, or there is something else that prevents him from doing those things. What could that be?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
“Omnipotence” means that he can do anything that he wants, including sinning, being evil, and telling lies. The fact that he can't do those things means that something else is at play that prevents him from acting as such. What do you think that might be?
Sorry no

Being omnipotent does not mean you act contrary to your nature

You cannot pit one attribute of God against another
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Still not answering the question. Everybody can see that, and can draw their own conclusions. The question is not about whether omnipotence has anything to do with morality or not. The question is about how he can be omnipotent, and still not be able to do certain things, like it says in the Bible; such as telling lies, being dishonest, evil, immoral, or unjust etc. Either he is not omnipotent, or there is something else that prevents him from doing those things. What could that be?
Again, category error. Lying is a question of morality. If you cannot see that I cannot help you. Not to mention the fact we are not even talking about the same God. You have many gods all of which I suppose could choose to sin.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Again, category error. Lying is a question of morality. If you cannot see that I cannot help you. Not to mention the fact we are not even talking about the same God. You have many gods all of which I suppose could choose to sin.
When you don't have a good answer, resort to ad hominem. Where have I seen that before?
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Sorry no

Being omnipotent does not mean you act contrary to your nature

You cannot pit one attribute of God against another
So his omnipotence is limited by his nature? That I suppose is one possible answer. That still leaves open the question of how one of his attribute can limit another. That is a good question, don't you think?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
So his omnipotence is limited by his nature? That I suppose is one possible answer. That still leaves open the question of how one of his attribute can limit another. That is a good question, don't you think?
God's attributes are seen only in terms of positives. inability to act in a negative manner is not seen as a limitation
 

zerinus

Well-known member
God's attributes are seen only in terms of positives. inability to act in a negative manner is not seen as a limitation
That is a good answer, but I am sure it can be explored even further. How is the positive and negative determined for example? The biggest problem with it of course is that it does not chime in with Calvinism, in which God is capable of good and evil at the same time. He is the author of all evil in the world, as well as all the good. So that category difference does not apply to him in their theological framework.
 

civic

Well-known member
Nobody likes losing an argument. That is true. But you can't win by being illogical. That is a fact. You can't get round that.
And logic does not equal truth.

How can God be 3 yet 1 ?

How can Jesus be both man and God at the same time ?

How could Creation be ex nihilo ?

There are many others I could provide but this should suffice.

BTW- every true miracle defies logic and reason just look at Jesus first miracle.

next....................................................................................................................................................

hope this helps !!!
 

TomFL

Well-known member
That is a good answer, but I am sure it can be explored even further. How is the positive and negative determined for example? The biggest problem with it of course is that it does not chime in with Calvinism, in which God is capable of good and evil at the same time. He is the author of all evil in the world, as well as all the good. So that category difference does not apply to him in their theological framework.
Some Calvinists will accept that claim but most will not
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
And logic does not equal truth.

How can God be 3 yet 1 ?

How can Jesus be both man and God at the same time ?

How could Creation be ex nihilo ?

There are many others I could provide but this should suffice.

BTW- every true miracle defies logic and reason just look at Jesus first miracle.

next....................................................................................................................................................

hope this helps !!!
For people who like Logic...


1+1+1=1?? ~ That's illogical!!!

1×1×1=1? ~ Now that's Logical...

1÷1÷1=1? ~ That's Logical too, and is close to being Biblical; the Logos of God proceeded from the Father, and the Holy Spirit proceeded from God the Father and God the Son...

If he doesn't accept this, he should accept that 1x1x1=1 is a Logical equation; IE that Three-Ones as a Concept, can Logically equal One. Or else he needs to be content with existing in a state of Cognitive Dissonance...
 
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