Life of the Cosmic Christ in Us (Empirical Evidence)!

docphin5

Active member
Dear a-theist, This is a simple way of explaining the Christ in us using empirical evidence and/or reason. I am not naive to think that this is enough to persuade you to my theistic position but I think at the least you deserve to know what IMO is actually at stake, i.e., a future life free of suffering and death. I know it requires a lot of imagination to see the fuzzy edges (past and future time) but they can be inferred based on evidence all around us and using reason. Maybe someday I can flesh out some more details but this is my best attempt at explaining the structure of our present reality as part of the life of the Cosmic Christ!

Assumption: Drawing from the Greek or Egyptian model of "God" (as opposed to the orthodox version of "God"), God, Himself, namely, El, "Amun", or "true God and Father", would be outside creation, hidden, and invisible. Within creation, God would be independently manifest as his own Son(s), namely, Spirit(s) of God (Hebrew: Ruach Elohim, Greek: Pneuma Theos), or "Jesus Christ", specifically, love, good, justice, truth, and honor.

Table 1: Life (Time by Substance) of the Cosmic Christ in Us (Empirical Evidence and/or Reason)

"..............................................."
A
"............................................
B
"...........................................
C
"........................................
D
".......................................
E
1Time 0 (no time)Time 0 + 1 (Past time
= 13.7 Billion Years ago)
Time 2 (Present time)Time 2 + 1 (Future Time)Time 0 (no time)
2Space 0 = Single Thing ("Singularity")Space 0 + 1= Expanding
"Big Bang"
Space 2 = Expanding, Divided, FragmentedSpace 2 +1 = Collapsing
"Big Crunch"
Space 3 = Single Thing ("Singularity")
3"Body" = Energy (E), Complex, Ordered, Alive *"Body" = Energy and Matter (E=m*c*c), Disorder, Lifeless"Body" = Energy and Matter (E=m*c*c), Disorder, Lifeless; AND Flesh: Complex, Ordered, Alive *"Body" = Energy and Matter (E=m*c*c), Disorder, Lifeless"Body" = Energy (E), Complex, Ordered, Alive *
4Soul = Intelligent, Self-awaren/a Souls = Intelligent, Self-awaren/a Souls = Intelligent, self-aware
5Spirit or "Wisdom" (Greek: Sophia) = Good, truth, love, honor, justicen/a Spirit or "Wisdom" (Greek: Sophia) = Good, truth, love, honor, justicen/aSpirit or "Wisdom" (Greek: Sophia) = Good, truth, love, honor, justice

* "Alive" in the present time is correlated with complexity and order, therefore, we may INFER that the most complex thing(s) in the life of the cosmos is ALIVE!
Legend:
Blue is empirically true.
Green is inferred from what is true in front of us.


Table 2: Biblical /Mythical Archetypes for the actual Cosmic Christ in US!

3A: "YHWH Elohim" forms the Outer Adam or "body" of Adam = "Body" of ChristPassions, Impulses, fits of Anger, Jealousy, Genocidal tendencies, InjusticeSubject to the law of sin
4A: "Adam/Eve" = Individual soul/spirit; "a type for Christ" (Romans 5:14)
5A: "Ruach Elohim" (English: Spirit, Greek: Pneuma), aka "Jesus Christ" (Hebrew: Yesuati), aka, "Wisdom" (Greek: Sophia), forms the Inner Adam or spirit of AdamTemperance, Love, Good, Truth, Justice, and "Salvation"Subject to the law of "God", namely, El

Table 2 demonstrates how the archetypes are associated with ourselves. A sage, "prophet", philosopher, "apostle", gnostic, etc. would have understood the meaning of the archetypes in scripture. They would have understood the secret, hidden, or allegorical meaning as it applies to us!
 
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docphin5

Active member
The most memorized verse in the Bible has a different flare knowing that Christ and cosmos are inextricably linked to us as "Son(s)". Read it anew knowing what I described above.

(John 3)
(16) For God [El] so loved the cosmos ("world"), that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

(17) For God [El] did not send his Son into the cosmos ("cosmos") to condemn the cosmos ("world"), but in order that the cosmos ("world") might be saved through him.

(18) Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
 

docphin5

Active member
I honestly don't understand how this is supposed to be empirical evidence.
Everything in Table 1 sums up the life of Christ. Two-thirds of the table is right in front of us, easily observable, and testable. The remaining one-third is inferred from the evidence in front of us. We have to stop thinking about the mythical, solitary, Jesus of the Gospels and understand what he actually represents in the grand life of the cosmos, that is, Love, truth, honor, salvation (A5, C5, E5).

The "body" of Christ is "all things" (A3, C3, E3) expanding and collapsing over time and space. Our souls who value and are united to good, truth, justice, love, and honor, are independent manifestations of God (C4), aka, the "living Christ": "It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me." (Galatians 2:20)

Colossians 2:3 "...being knit together in love, to reach all the riches of full assurance of understanding and the knowledge of God's mystery, which is Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Ephesians 1:10 "making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth."

Gospel of Thomas:
#77:
"Jesus said : "I am the All. Cleave a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift up a stone, and You will find Me there."
#3: "Jesus said : "The Kingdom is inside You and outside You."
#25: " Jesus said : "Love your brother like your own soul, watch over him like the apple of your eye."
 
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Nouveau

Well-known member
Everything in Table 1 sums up the life of Christ. Two-thirds of the table is right in front of us, easily observable, and testable. The remaining one-third is inferred from the evidence in front of us.
Could you please clarify exactly what is being said to be observable and what is being inferred?
 

docphin5

Active member
Could you please clarify exactly what is being said to be observable and what is being inferred?
The green areas of the Table are inferred (A4, A5, E4, E5) because I cannot prove that the singularity was intelligent. But I infer it using the evidence PRESENTLY in our cosmos, that is, intelligence correlates with complexity and order. Right? Humans are the most complex living organisms on the planet, nay, in the cosmos, and we are intelligent. Single celled bacteria or viruses are the least complex living organisms and they lack intelligence.

Moving up the chain of living organisms we see increasing levels of intelligence. Primates, and dolphins are at the top for cognition, and social interactions. THEREFORE, we can infer from the evidence we do know that intelligence and self-awareness correlates with complexity and order.

Now, what is the most complex and ordered thing in the history of our cosmos (and plausibly in its future)? It would be the singularity at the beginning of our cosmos, which drives the physical laws of our universe, for example, the arrow of time goes one way, because the cosmos is becoming less ordered from when it began.

What I am inferring, to put it bluntly, is that the singularity was a divine entity, specifically, the Son of God, in whom "all things" belong.

Colossians 1:16 "For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning,"
 
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Nouveau

Well-known member
The green areas of the Table are inferred (A4, A5, E4, E5) because I cannot prove that the singularity was intelligent. But I infer it using the evidence PRESENTLY in our cosmos, that is, intelligence correlates with complexity and order. Right? Humans are the most complex living organisms on the planet, nay, in the cosmos, and we are intelligent. Single celled bacteria or viruses are the least complex living organisms and they lack intelligence.

Moving up the chain of living organisms we see increasing levels of intelligence. Primates, and dolphins are at the top for cognition, and social interactions. THEREFORE, we can infer from the evidence we do know that intelligence and self-awareness correlates with complexity and order.

Now, what is the most complex and ordered thing(s) in the history of our cosmos? It would be the singularity at the beginning of our cosmos, which drives the physical laws of our universe, for example, the arrow of time goes one way, because the cosmos is becoming less ordered from when it began.

What I am inferring, to put it bluntly, is that the singularity was a divine entity, specifically, the Son of God, in whom "all things" belong.
Thanks for the explanation. Maybe labels for each column and row in the table would make it clearer, as I wouldn't have worked out that this is what you were saying from the table alone.

I don't think I would agree that intelligence correlates with complexity and order. Firstly, one could argue that the more ordered something is, the less complex it must be as a result. Secondly, while I agree that greater intelligence requires greater complexity, I don't think the reverse holds. There are many highly complex things that we have no reason to consider intelligent, e.g. weather systems, the solar system, brownian motion in a teacup.

I'm also curious as to where this inference gets you. If the singularity was conscious due to being highly ordered, does this mean that God is nature, and that God is dying (i.e. progressively becoming less intelligent and conscious) as the universe increases in entropy?
 

docphin5

Active member
Thanks for the explanation. Maybe labels for each column and row in the table would make it clearer, as I wouldn't have worked out that this is what you were saying from the table alone.
Appreciate the constructive criticism.
I don't think I would agree that intelligence correlates with complexity and order. Firstly, one could argue that the more ordered something is, the less complex it must be as a result. Secondly, while I agree that greater intelligence requires greater complexity, I don't think the reverse holds. There are many highly complex things that we have no reason to consider intelligent, e.g. weather systems, the solar system, brownian motion in a teacup.
I may come back to that (if I can find a reference from a scientific journal) but I think most biologists would agree that complexity and intelligence are correlated.
I'm also curious as to where this inference gets you. If the singularity was conscious due to being highly ordered, does this mean that God is nature, and that God is dying (i.e. progressively becoming less intelligent and conscious) as the universe increases in entropy?
It means that the Son of God or Christ died at the beginning of our cosmos, which happens to correlate with the death of the mythical Adam in the Hebrew creation myth (Paul says Adam is a "type for Christ"; Romans 5:14) and also correlates with the division of the Sophia (English: Wisdom) of the Sophia mythology which resulted in the formation of matter. It also correlates with the Egyptian mythology where Atum-Re becomes weak as his light wanes resulting in him entering the underworld (aka the grave) before becoming alive again at the midnight hour, feeding the spirits in the underworld and leading them out as the "morning star" to rise to his place in the celestial heaven.

It is the same story rewritten for different ages and civilizations, that is, the death and resurrection of a divine entity, in whom we are all connected. The cool thing is that it correlates with reality when you step back and look at it from a distance over long periods of time.

God, himself, is outside creation so he cannot die, but independently manifest as his own Son(s) in creation, he endures suffering and death with us, in order to save us and save our cosmos ("world")!
 
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Nouveau

Well-known member
Appreciate the constructive criticism.
You're welcome, and thanks for an interesting thread.

I may come back to that (if I can find a reference from a scientific journal) but I think most biologists would agree that complexity and intelligence are correlated.
Within the confines of biology they probably are correlated. But that's because intelligence requires complexity, not that complexity requires intelligence.

It means that the Son of God or Christ died at the beginning of our cosmos, which happens to correlate with the death of the mythical Adam in the Hebrew creation myth (Paul says Adam is a "type for Christ"; Romans 5:14) and also correlates with the division of the Sophia (English: Wisdom) of the Sophia mythology which resulted in the formation of matter. It also correlates with the Egyptian mythology where Atum-Re becomes weak as his light wanes resulting in him entering the underworld (aka the grave) before becoming alive again at the midnight hour, feeding the spirits in the underworld and leading them out as the "morning star" to rise to his place in the celestial heaven.
Are you using 'Son of God' and 'Christ' as labels for the singularity? Or are you referring to something else now? Why would the death have been all-or-nothing at the beginning of the cosmos, when the decrease in order is gradual?

It is the same story rewritten for different ages and civilizations, that is, the death and resurrection of a divine entity, in whom we are all connected.
What do you mean by 'resurrection' here, and what is the basis for inferring it? I recall you discussing in a previous thread the idea of humans becoming conscious as the universe regaining sentience, but this seems a long stretch from anything Christians are talking about when they speak of the resurrection of Jesus. If this is what you mean, then do humans now constitute the mind of God?

God, himself, is outside creation so he cannot die, but independently manifest as his own Son(s) in creation, he endures suffering and death with us, in order to save us and save our cosmos ("world")!
I thought we were discussing the early universe as a sentient mind. How did we get from that to a God who created the universe and exists outside of it?
 

docphin5

Active member
You're welcome, and thanks for an interesting thread.


Within the confines of biology they probably are correlated. But that's because intelligence requires complexity, not that complexity requires intelligence.


Are you using 'Son of God' and 'Christ' as labels for the singularity? Or are you referring to something else now? Why would the death have been all-or-nothing at the beginning of the cosmos, when the decrease in order is gradual?
Right, the "Son" of God is creation with a past, present, and future. Think of the singularity in the beginning as a healthy body producing intelligence and self-awareness just as our body does. Then just as our body becomes unhealthy and dies so did the singularity become unhealthy and die. Scientists say the singularity suffered a perturbation. Theologions call it a "passion". It then expanded into matter and energy. In that sense, the cosmos was like a lifeless corpse, until we came along. WE give life to the cosmos again, which means "Christ is alive in us" as Paul asserted.
What do you mean by 'resurrection' here, and what is the basis for inferring it? I recall you discussing in a previous thread the idea of humans becoming conscious as the universe regaining sentience, but this seems a long stretch from anything Christians are talking about when they speak of the resurrection of Jesus. If this is what you mean, then do humans now constitute the mind of God?
That is right. The "Mind" of God is just the attributes of God (good, true, just) independently manifest in creation through us. We are independently manifesting or reflecting in creation the "image" of God. We give life to the cosmos which makes us the Son(s) of God. "For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts (Greek: nous) of God except the Spirit of God." (1 Corinthians 2:11)

Christian orthodoxy still doesn't know that the myths are just the husks surrounding the actual kernel inside. For example, Jesus Christ rising from the dead is ACTUALLY love, good, justice manifest in us --in our cosmos once again! But our human body remains weak and unhealthy, as long as the cosmic body (Christ's body) is fragmented, so we need a new body to keep our soul alive eternally. Hence the necessity for our cosmos to return to a singularity again, perfect, whole, ordered, powerful when it can sustain soul(s) indefinitely.
I thought we were discussing the early universe as a sentient mind. How did we get from that to a God who created the universe and exists outside of it?
You asked if nature was God so I was trying to clarify that nature is the Son of God. God, himself would be outside creation. It would be called panentheism versus pantheism because everything is "IN" God versus everything IS God. It would also be called henotheism because we should worship the One God (i.e., El, Amun, "true God and Father) through the existence of many gods (i.e. Elohim, Atumm-Re, Son of God, Christ, us, etc.). "The one has become millions."
 
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Nouveau

Well-known member
Right, the "Son" of God is creation with a past, present, and future. Think of the singularity in the beginning as a healthy body producing intelligence and self-awareness just as our body does. Then just as our body becomes unhealthy and dies so did the singularity become unhealthy and die. Scientists say the singularity suffered a perturbation. Theologions call it a "passion". It then expanded into matter and energy. In that sense, the cosmos was like a lifeless corpse, until we came along. WE give life to the cosmos again, which means "Christ is alive in us" as Paul asserted.

That is right. The "Mind" of God is just the attributes of God (good, true, just) independently manifest in creation through us. We are independently manifesting or reflecting in creation the "image" of God. We give life to the cosmos which makes us the Son(s) of God. "For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts (Greek: nous) of God except the Spirit of God." (1 Corinthians 2:11)

Christian orthodoxy still doesn't know that the myths are just the husks surrounding the actual kernel inside. For example, Jesus Christ rising from the dead is ACTUALLY love, good, justice manifest in us --in our cosmos once again! But our human body remains weak and unhealthy, as long as the cosmic body (Christ's body) is fragmented, so we need a new body to keep our soul alive eternally. Hence the necessity for our cosmos to return to a singularity again, perfect, whole, ordered, powerful when it can sustain soul(s) indefinitely.

You asked if nature was God so I was trying to clarify that nature is the Son of God. God, himself would be outside creation. It would be called panentheism versus pantheism because everything is "IN" God versus everything IS God. It would also be called henotheism because we should worship the One God (i.e., El, Amun, "true God and Father) through the existence of many gods (i.e. Elohim, Atumm-Re, Son of God, Christ, us, etc.). "The one has become millions."
Then where's the evidence-based inference that gets you to God's existence, as a creator being outside of creation?
 

docphin5

Active member
Then where's the evidence-based inference that gets you to God's existence, as a creator being outside of creation?
The evidence for God is Us. We bring life to a lifeless cosmos. We independently manifest God in our universe through good, love, justice, and honor. But it does not end with only the present for God has planned a future for us too.

If you are looking for something outside our reality for you to wrap your hands around then you will not find it. God, Himself, is invisible to our senses. An analogy would be dark matter or dark energy. We know it is there influencing our cosmos but we cannot see it or put our finger on it.

If we cannot see or touch something in our universe having a profound effect on everything, such as, dark matter or dark energy, then, why would we expect to see or touch God, himself, which resides outside of our universe? Yet, we can see his independent manifestation in us just as we see dark matter holding whole galaxies together.

We will never really know it all because ultimately it is a process of learning about something that is always beyond reach. The horizon just keeps moving further away as we approach our destination. It is the finite trying to understand the infinite.
 
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5wize

Well-known member
The evidence for God is Us. We bring life to a lifeless cosmos. We independently manifest God in our universe through good, love, justice, and honor. But it does not end with only the present for God has planned a future for us too.

If you are looking for something outside our reality for you to wrap your hands around then you will not find it. God, Himself, is invisible to our senses. An analogy would be dark matter or dark energy. We know it is there influencing our cosmos but we cannot see it or put our finger on it.

If we cannot see or touch something in our universe having a profound effect on everything, such as, dark matter or dark energy, then, why would we expect to see or touch God, himself, which resides outside of our universe? Yet, we can see his independent manifestation in us just as we see dark natter holding whole galaxies together.
But your model of us being the life in a lifeless cosmos works without the attribution of God. IT's just us giving our life, our meaning, our justice, and our mercy to animate an otherwise lifeless world.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
The evidence for God is Us. We bring life to a lifeless cosmos. We independently manifest God in our universe through good, love, justice, and honor. But it does not end with only the present for God has planned a future for us too.

If you are looking for something outside our reality for you to wrap your hands around then you will not find it. God, Himself, is invisible to our senses. An analogy would be dark matter or dark energy. We know it is there influencing our cosmos but we cannot see it or put our finger on it.

If we cannot see or touch something in our universe having a profound effect on everything, such as, dark matter or dark energy, then, why would we expect to see or touch God, himself, which resides outside of our universe? Yet, we can see his independent manifestation in us just as we see dark matter holding whole galaxies together.

We will never really know it all because ultimately it is a process of learning about something that is always beyond reach. The horizon just keeps moving further away as we approach our destination. It is the finite trying to understand the infinite.
I'm not asking you to show that God can be seen or touched. I'm asking for the inference by which you deem God to exist. I have no particular objection to you using spiritual or mystical terms to describe the existence of human consciousness within the universe. I'm less convinced of the idea that the universe itself was once conscious. But you've given no evidence or argument at all for God existing outside of the universe as its creator.
 

docphin5

Active member
But your model of us being the life in a lifeless cosmos works without the attribution of God. IT's just us giving our life, our meaning, our justice, and our mercy to animate an otherwise lifeless world.
Sure, if you only consider the present as an anomaly versus part of an eternal plan and if truth, love, good are nothing more than an aberration in the cosmos. I think this what separates a-theists from theists. Theists see the virtues as eternal principles that transcend materiality whereas a-theists see them as optional. One could ask himself/herself whether vice is equivalent to virtue if no one would know one’s choice. I think a true theist would choose virtue over vice even if no one knew what they chose because to them there is no better way to live life. More than that life would not be worth living unless it be a virtuous life.
 

docphin5

Active member
I'm not asking you to show that God can be seen or touched. I'm asking for the inference by which you deem God to exist. I have no particular objection to you using spiritual or mystical terms to describe the existence of human consciousness within the universe. I'm less convinced of the idea that the universe itself was once conscious. But you've given no evidence or argument at all for God existing outside of the universe as its creator.
Here is the evidence for what you ask. There are souls in the universe that perceive the virtues as more valuable than life itself. Call them fools if you so choose to but there is something inside them that they hold more valuable than all the things in the world combined. Where does that thought come from but God himself?
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Here is the evidence for what you ask. There are souls in the universe that perceive the virtues as more valuable than life itself. Call them fools if you so choose to but there is something inside them that they hold more valuable than all the things in the world combined. Where does that thought come from but God himself?
The thought obviously comes from those people who think it. You're not really offering any empirical evidence for God here.
 

docphin5

Active member
The thought obviously comes from those people who think it. You're not really offering any empirical evidence for God here.
Why do they think it? We are more than our conscious self, infinitely more. For example, the hydrogen atoms flowing through my veins were present when the cosmos began. They traveled all the way across the cosmos before they became me. The point is that we are so much more than our conscious self, to include the non conscious self which influences the path we take, and the non conscious self includes the source of existence itself. We have to be open to that possibility if we are honest with ourselves.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Why do they think it? We are more than our conscious self, infinitely more. For example, the hydrogen atoms flowing through my veins were present when the cosmos began. They traveled all the way across the cosmos before they became me. The point is that we are so much more than our conscious self, to include the non conscious self which influences the path we take, and the non conscious self includes the source of existence itself. We have to be open to that possibility if we are honest with ourselves.
We seem to have strayed a long way from the OP at this point, but I'd recommend looking into the evolution of altruism. As a social species we have evolved to place high importance on values that promote social cohesion, and groups survive and reproduce better with individuals in them who are capable of sacrificing themselves for those values.
 
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