Limited Atonement didn't come from Calvin or Scripture

Oh and btw, the Greek word for "world" is the same in the above verses as it is in Jn 3:16, Jn 17:9 and 1 Jn 2:2. :)

So you can't use the Greek meanings to justify your changes either. ;) So I'll just leave you to keep attacking the messenger because you can't justify your nonsensical and unbiblical changes because they don't make sense any way you look at them. Bye. :)
You said you like to have fun. We do too. If you had taken the time to do a word study of the word 'world' you would have found the Greek word 'kosmos'.


It's just a matter of compare and contrast. That means you need to have a hermeneutic that works consistently. I use the 'grammatical/historical' model. It demands that you understand the audience, the setting and an appreciation of the times.

The manuscripts show quite clearly that the Bible as written in Greek. Learn how to use it effectively.
 
NO Greek lexicon provides that PHONEY daffy-nishun you are providing.

This is proof that YOU are the one "twisting Scripture".

BDAG rerfutes you

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

John 3:16 (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:17 (KJV)
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world;
but that the world through him might be saved.


John 6:51 (KJV)

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.


John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

5. the world as mankind (Sib. Or. 1, 189)—a. gener. οὐαί τῷ κ. ἀπὸ τῶν σκανδάλων woe to mankind because of vexations Mt 18:7; τὸ φῶς τοῦ κ. the light for mankind 5:14; cf. J 8:12; 9:5. ὁ σωτὴρ τοῦ κ. 4:42; 1J 4:14 (this designation is found in the inscrs., esp. oft. of Hadrian [WWeber, Untersuchungen z. Geschichte des Kaisers Hadrianus ’07, 225; 226; 229]).—J 1:29; 3:17b; 17:6.

John 1:29 (KJV)
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.
 
Christ died for his people but he also died for the sins of everyone else too. Most will simply reject it...which of course they can't do if it was never offered to them in the first place. ;) Jn 3:36, Jn 1:29, 1 Tim. 4:9-10, 1 Jn 2:2, Jn 3:16, etc.

So quoting some verses while throwing out other verses is not how to read the Bible. It's REJECTING the verses you don't like. So listening to people do that is listening to people whose goal is to distort the Bible to suit their desires. So praying for you is the only thing I can do, Theo. Take care.
Did Christ die for the sin of rejecting Him??
 
It's just a matter of compare and contrast. That means you need to have a hermeneutic that works consistently. I use the 'grammatical/historical' model. It demands that you understand the audience, the setting and an appreciation of the times.
Here is a then and now verse that will test if you are being deceived and are not really using the grammatical/historical model. It is historical and spoken by a true apostle.

Acts 16:16 Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.

17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.

18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.

19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?

20 For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.

21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)

_____________________________________________

22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.

23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

There is not a Calvinist alive today who believes this statement by the Apostle Paul, and especially the para church preacers of Calvinism and the hero preachers of Calvinism, like the guy in California. God tells us here why he divided up the nations from the families. Now watch below.
_________________________________

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

My verse is number 30. It is then, before the resurrection of Christ, the times of ignorance, and now, after the resurrection of Christ, that they should seek the Lord. Why does anyone think it was after the resurrection that God began sending preachers into the whole world?

This is the gospel. I have concluded that people who say that God is limited in his atonement are like these Athenians, religious , devout, worshipful but with misplaced loyalties and facing the judgement without a living righteous mediator to stand in for them. Fortunately, a few did believe and were justified and walked away from that crowd. See below.
________________________________________

33 So Paul departed from among them.

34 Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.
____________________________

STOP Calvinists and consider your ways. This one passage is enough to refute almost every Calvinist doctrine.

If God commands all men everywhere to repent, and all men everywhere do not repent, then logic says they have a choice, especially if someone is preaching determinism of God and that men have no ability to obey.

It is time for Christians to label this Calvinism among the extreme cults and just hope some of them are saved before the deception of their souls.

There is no such doctrine in Biblical Christianity of limited atonement.
 
Here is a then and now verse that will test if you are being deceived and are not really using the grammatical/historical model. It is historical and spoken by a true apostle.

Acts 16:16 Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.

17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.

18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.

19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?

20 For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.

21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)

_____________________________________________

22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.

23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

There is not a Calvinist alive today who believes this statement by the Apostle Paul, and especially the para church preacers of Calvinism and the hero preachers of Calvinism, like the guy in California. God tells us here why he divided up the nations from the families. Now watch below.
_________________________________

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

My verse is number 30. It is then, before the resurrection of Christ, the times of ignorance, and now, after the resurrection of Christ, that they should seek the Lord. Why does anyone think it was after the resurrection that God began sending preachers into the whole world?

This is the gospel. I have concluded that people who say that God is limited in his atonement are like these Athenians, religious , devout, worshipful but with misplaced loyalties and facing the judgement without a living righteous mediator to stand in for them. Fortunately, a few did believe and were justified and walked away from that crowd. See below.
________________________________________

33 So Paul departed from among them.

34 Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.
____________________________

STOP Calvinists and consider your ways. This one passage is enough to refute almost every Calvinist doctrine.

If God commands all men everywhere to repent, and all men everywhere do not repent, then logic says they have a choice, especially if someone is preaching determinism of God and that men have no ability to obey.

It is time for Christians to label this Calvinism among the extreme cults and just hope some of them are saved before the deception of their souls.

There is no such doctrine in Biblical Christianity of limited atonement.
And for the 100th time command does not imply ability otherwise the law would of been kept and no one would be guilty . But through the law brings forth guilt and sin and it’s a Tudor to bring men to Christ. It was never intended to bring righteousness by obedience since it’s impossible. The law brings guilt, sin and condemnation.Its to bad you reject the truth of original sin and mans depravity.
 
And for the 100th time command does not imply ability otherwise the law would of been kept and no one would be guilty . But through the law brings forth guilt and sin and it’s a Tudor to bring men to Christ. It was never intended to bring righteousness by obedience since it’s impossible. The law brings guilt, sin and condemnation.Its to bad you reject the truth of original sin and mans depravity.
If that the gospel, you think? The gospel is that these Athenians do not have the ability to believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ and his mission of a perfect sinless life that Paul presented to them.

Is your message to the world from God is that they are sinners and sorry about their luck?

The text says, and it agrees with all texts of the scriptures on the same subject, that God has commanded all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, the saviour of the world. There is a judgement coming and God's assurance for sinners is that Jesus Christ has risen from the dead. He is an able and alive, having endured death, for all men everywhere.

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If that the gospel, you think? The gospel is that these Athenians do not have the ability to believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ and his mission of a perfect sinless life that Paul presented to them.

Is your message to the world from God is that they are sinners and sorry about their luck?

The text says, and it agrees with all texts of the scriptures on the same subject, that God has commanded all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, the saviour of the world. There is a judgement coming and God's assurance for sinners is that Jesus Christ has risen from the dead. He is an able and alive, having endured death, for all men everywhere.

edit
Have you obeyed the commandments since you started following God ?

Your answer proves I’m correct unless you lie to yourself.

hope this helps!!!
 
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Have you obeyed the commandments since you started following God ?

Your answer proves I’m correct unless you lie to yourself.

hope this helps!!!
There are not commandment(s). There is a commandment. God has commanded all men everywhere to repent. Can they obey him? Of course they can obey him if the can refuse to repent.

Stop assuming all men everywhere are going to be willing to confuse plain language like Calvinists do.
 
There are not commandment(s). There is a commandment. God has commanded all men everywhere to repent. Can they obey him? Of course they can obey him if the can refuse to repent.

Stop assuming all men everywhere are going to be willing to confuse plain language like Calvinists do.
Evasion
 
... So quoting some verses while throwing out other verses is not how to read the Bible. It's REJECTING the verses you don't like. So listening to people do that is listening to people whose goal is to distort the Bible to suit their desires. So praying for you is the only thing I can do, Theo. Take care.
Project much?
 
You are making the scriptures senseless with some of your doctrines. There is still time to repent and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ and his death and resurrection is good news to all men everywhere.
 
You are making the scriptures senseless with some of your doctrines. There is still time to repent and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ and his death and resurrection is good news to all men everywhere.
No need to repent as I’ve done that when Christ regenerated me and I started serving Him and never looked back as I press on towards that goal and finishing the race that began in 1980. I will finish this marathon through Christ who strengthens me.

hope this helps !!!
 
This entire forum seems to forget the CARM rules..........seems like they're broken time after time!

Attacking people:
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  2. Do not discuss a board poster on the forums/visitor messages/chat, do not comment using their user name, and, most importantly, no disrespectful comments about our Lord.
  3. Do not post any message that harasses, insult, belittle, threatens, or flames another guest personally. Using other websites/forums/chat to attack CARM users if documented to admin will result in immediate Suspension to all parties involved in bullying and gossip of any CARM user.
  4. Do not discuss a forum poster on the discussion boards/messages/chat, and do not attempt to moderate a forum poster’s correct behaviors. Stick to the topic of discussion.
  5. Send alerts to moderators if noted rule violations.
  6. You may discuss or disagree with another member’s belief system/group per the forum’s topic, but there will be no personal attacks on the member himself or herself.


I cannot believe the replies to each other on here!
My comments are in the context of limited atonement, the subject of the thread.

The scriptures tell us that we should "earnestly contend for the faith." One does not need to contend with those who have never heard about the faith.

Paul, our pattern, contended with religious people, as he was doing in Athens in Acts 17. They called him a babbler but it did not ruin his day nor alter his compassion for them and keep him from giving out the good news of Jesus Christ.

Religious people, who have a different religion, are those who contend.

And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Acts 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

These Calvinist are preaching an "exception." I am disputing with them but I am not name calling.

The apostles are always right.
 
My comments are in the context of limited atonement, the subject of the thread.

The scriptures tell us that we should "earnestly contend for the faith." One does not need to contend with those who have never heard about the faith.

Paul, our pattern, contended with religious people, as he was doing in Athens in Acts 17. They called him a babbler but it did not ruin his day nor alter his compassion for them and keep him from giving out the good news of Jesus Christ.

Religious people, who have a different religion, are those who contend.

And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Acts 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

These Calvinist are preaching an "exception." I am disputing with them but I am not name calling.

The apostles are always right.
Sure you are since you consider Calvinists “ outside” of Christ and false teachers. You have condemned reformed believers in Christ and by doing so are attacking the body of Christ, His Church.
 
No need to repent as I’ve done that when Christ regenerated me and I started serving Him and never looked back as I press on towards that goal and finishing the race that began in 1980. I will finish this marathon through Christ who strengthens me.

hope this helps !!!
17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
18 And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons,
19 Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:
20 [And] how I kept back nothing that was profitable [unto you], but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,
_____________________________________
21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, 1) repentance toward God, and 2) faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

The scriptures makes the case that not one man is righteous and that God requires perfect righteousness in order for men to be in his Divine presence.

Ro 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

God counts sin as unrighteous things done habitually in the body. A person has control over what they do in their bodies. Here is a partial list of what men do in the body that are repulsive to God.

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
____________________________________

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

A man can "repent" toward God and not do those things any more, but that does not give him righteousness because he has already done them. Repentance is a necessary thing but without faith that Jesus Christ has paid the price for those sins, which is death and hell, then repentance would not help in the after life.

All men were sinners before being saved from the penalty of their sins. God said he winked at the ignorance of men before the cross, but now there is no ignorance to hide under. Jesus Christ was lifted up on that cross in a public setting. He died and was buried, and because he had no sin, he can give his own perfect righteous record to those who will believe it.

Now, I am saved today and confess that I have no righteousness of my own, but I am clothed upon in the righteousness of Christ. I believed What he did for sinners, every one, everywhere. God did not save me because I was special above other sinners, but because I was a sinner and could not save myself from the penalty of sin.

There is no limited atonement. God will save all those who will believe the gospel.

1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
 
NO Greek lexicon provides that PHONEY daffy-nishun you are providing.

This is proof that YOU are the one "twisting Scripture".

BDAG refutes you

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

John 3:16 (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:17 (KJV)
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world;
but that the world through him might be saved.


John 6:51 (KJV)

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.


John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

5. the world as mankind (Sib. Or. 1, 189)—a. gener. οὐαί τῷ κ. ἀπὸ τῶν σκανδάλων woe to mankind because of vexations Mt 18:7; τὸ φῶς τοῦ κ. the light for mankind 5:14; cf. J 8:12; 9:5. ὁ σωτὴρ τοῦ κ. 4:42; 1J 4:14 (this designation is found in the inscrs., esp. oft. of Hadrian [WWeber, Untersuchungen z. Geschichte des Kaisers Hadrianus ’07, 225; 226; 229]).—J 1:29; 3:17b; 17:6.

John 1:29 (KJV)
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.
 
If you believe on Christ all sins are forgiven even previous unbelief

Christ's sacrifice is provisional and benefits only if one believes
Again. is unbelief a sin Christ dies for? One of the sins He took away? Was that a yes or a no?
 
Again. is unbelief a sin Christ dies for? One of the sins He took away? Was that a yes or a no?
Did you not read ?

Christ's death was provisional

It benefits only those who believe

When so done past unbelief is pardoned
 
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