Limited Atonement didn't come from Calvin or Scripture

Did you not read ?

Christ's death was provisional

It benefits only those who believe

When so done past unbelief is pardoned
It was provisional? Who says?

So Christ died for the sin of unbelief but for some its not pardoned? LOL Umm......
 
Again. is unbelief a sin Christ dies for? One of the sins He took away? Was that a yes or a no?
Read this passage of scripture and you be the judge. Report back and let us know your conclusions.

Revelation 21:6-8
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
 
Read this passage of scripture and you be the judge. Report back and let us know your conclusions.

Revelation 21:6-8
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
No answer to my question?
 
No answer to my question?
Yes, a thousand times. Jesus took away sin by his sacrifice on Calvary. The atonement of Christ was the satisfaction for sin. In the OT, we are told, "God is angry with sinners everyday." There was no blood sacrifice for the nations in those days. But, in these days, there is a sacrifice for the nations. It is the sacrifice of God's only begotten son, Jesus Christ. It is God's own sacrifice on behalf of all men. With the sacrifice it is now possible for him to send preachers to the nations with the gospel of God. There would have been no gospel of God without the sacrifice of Christ and his shed blood.

What is the gospel of God, you say? Is it the same as the gospel of Christ? The answer is yes and no. The gospel of God includes the gospel of Christ which makes the gospel of God possible. But the gospel of Christ would have been in effect without the gospel of God becuse it was presented to one nation only in the beginning of this age after the cross. Extending the spiritual blessings of this gospel to all nations and all people everywhere on the earth is the gospel of God. Wherecan I find the gospel of God, you ask? Here is a nutshell and one can be assured that the theme of the epistle to the Romans is the gospel of God. Read this.

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (Paul was separated from the other apostles for this charge, their ministry was primarily to Israel, see Ga 2 for confirmation of this fact)

2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) (You may read about some of these promises in the last cahpter 16, in the epistle)

3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, (an apostle is one who is sent) for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

6 Among whom (Italy is just one of these nations) are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

Here is the nutshell: This defines the gospel of God.


You must remember that he, Paul, is separated from the other apostles for this mission to the nations.
15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

Now, watch this:

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, (that would be the good news, the glad tidings of God) and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, (The mystery here referenced is the church of Jesus Christ with both Jews and Gentiles on the same equal standing as sons of God)

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Yes, the obedience of faith. Here is the command explained and what it is.

Acts 24:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

BUT, where did we get the atoning blood that is required for washing away of sins?

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

You should look at all the "BUT NOWs" in the scriptures.

Be careful that you do not deny the gospel of God, because that happens often in this forum. It is a denial of the gospel itself and will send men to hell.
 
Again. is unbelief a sin Christ dies for? One of the sins He took away? Was that a yes or a no?
Were you not able to understand ?

If you believe on Christ all sins are forgiven even previous unbelief

Christ's sacrifice is provisional and benefits only if one believes
 
Jesus Himself speaks of limited atonement,
for He himself said Matt 20:28

28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

See that, His own Testimony, as the Son of Man He came to give His Life only for the Many, that clearly denotes a limited amount, though a large amount, doesnt mean all without exception

The many describes a large multitude Rev 7:9-10

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

This multitude was comprised of people out from different peoples Rev 5:9

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

The words out of are the greek prep ek and means:

  1. out of, from, by, away from

They came out from among the whole ! But nevertheless Jesus gives His Own Testimony of a limited atonement !
 
Jesus own testimony of a limited atonement from another scripture Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

The blood of me is shed for many, but not all without exception !
 
Jesus own testimony of a limited atonement from another scripture Jn 10:11,15

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
 
Um, it came from SCRIPTURE.

I don't know if you're going to be here for awhile, or simply going to leave after condemning people for a couple of days. But if you SERIOUSLY want to understand the issue (and if you don't, your opinions here are worthless), I would strongly suggest that you read John Owen's "Death of Death in the Death of Christ", and John Murray's "Redemption Accomplished and Applied".

Or you could simply respond with emotion.



Um, we don't get our theology from "Calvin".
We get our theology from the BIBLE.

But if you're truly interested in it, here's some others who discovered "limited atonement" from the BIBLE:

Justin Martyr (A.D. 150): “He endured the sufferings for those men whose souls are [actually] purified from all iniquity…As Jacob served Laban for the cattle that were spotted, and of various forms, so Christ served even to the cross for men of every kind, of many and various shapes, procuring them by His blood and the mystery of the cross.”

Irenaeus (A.D. 180): “He came to save all, all, I say, who through Him are born again unto God, infants, and little ones, and children, and young men, and old men…Jesus is the Savior of them that believe; but the Lord of them that believe not. Wherefore, Christ is introduced in the gospel weary…promising to give His life a ransom, in the room of, many.”

Tertullian (A.D. 200): “Christ died for the salvation of His people…for the church.”

Cyprian (A.D. 250): “All the sheep which Christ hath sought up by His blood and sufferings are saved…Whosoever shall be found in the blood, and with the mark of Christ shall only escape…He redeemed the believers with the price of His own blood…Let him be afraid to die who is not reckoned to have any part in the cross and sufferings of Christ.”

Eusebius (A.D. 330): “To what ‘us’ does he refer, unless to them that believe in Him? For to them that do not believe in Him, He is the author of their fire and burning. The cause of Christ’s coming is the redemption of those that were to be saved by Him.”

Hilarion (A.D. 363): “He shall remain in the sight of God forever, having already taken all whom He hath redeemed to be kings of heaven, and co-heirs of eternity, delivering them as the kingdom of God to the Father.”

Ambrose (A.D. 380): “Before the foundation of the world, it was God’s will that Christ should suffer for our salvation…Can He damn thee, whom He hath redeemed from death, for whom He offered Himself, whose life He knows is the reward of His own death?”

Pacian (A.D. 380): “Much more, He will not allow him that is redeemed to be destroyed, nor will He cast away those whom He has redeemed with a great price.”

Epiphanius (A.D. 390): “If you are redeemed…If therefore ye are bought with blood, thou are not the number of them who were bought with blood, O Manes, because thou deniest the blood…He gave His life for His own sheep.

Jerome (A.D. 390): “Christ is sacrificed for the salvation of believers…Not all are redeemed, for not all shall be saved, but the remnant…All those who are redeemed and delivered by Thy blood return to Zion, which Thou hast prepared for Thyself by Thine own blood…Christ came to redeem Zion [a metaphor for the church] with His blood. But lest we should think that all are Zion or every one in Zion is truly redeemed of the Lord, who are redeemed by the blood of Christ form the Church…He did not give His life for every man, but for many, that is, for those who would believe.”
You would do better to heed scripture rather than out of context quotes which confuse the etent and the application of atonement


Christ died for all verse list

The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
John 3:14–16
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 4:42
And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
John 6:33
For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
1 Corinthians 15:3–11
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
2 Corinthians 5:18–21
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1 John 4:14
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
John 12:47–48
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.


Exported from Logos Bible Software, 3:02 PM August 07, 2021.
 
Now, to structure how I'm going to respond, I will present the following outline:

1) Some passages which teach "limited atonement" (or "particular redemption"), which Tom and others don't want you to know about;
2) The proof-texts which are LIMITED and QUALIFIED by a particular group, usually "us";
3) Proof-texts which refer to "the world"
4) Proof-texts which refer to "all [men]".
5) Various proof-texts.


Particular Redemption:

Matt. 1:21
She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus,
for
he will save his people from their sins.

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd.
The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

John 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father;
and I lay down my life for the sheep.

1Cor. 15:3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received,
how that
Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;



Christ Died For All of "Us"

There are a number of passages which speak of Christ dying for "us", which is a PARTICULAR group. "US" is by definition NOT "universal", and not only was the Bible written to Christians ("us"), many of the passages which contrast the "us" with an exclusionary "them".

2Pet. 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Notice that Tom didn't even quote v.8, because he didn't want you to see the CONTEXT. This passage is about "the beloved" (v.8), and "us-ward" (v.9), meaning Christians, and is CONTRASTED with the "they" group of "scoffers" and "ungodly men" in vv. 3-7. For those interested, I've gone into greater detail concerning this passage, here.

Other "proof-texts" Tom shared which mention an "us" group that he apparently didn't notice were:

Isa. 53:6 "... And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of US all."
1 Cor. 15:3 "... Christ died for OUR sins according to the Scriptures."
2 Cor. 5:14 "... the love of Christ constraineth US ...:
2 Cor. 5:18 "... God, who hath reconciled. US to himself ...



Who is the "World"?

Many of Tom's "proof-texts" refer to Christ dying for "the world" (Greek, "kosmos"). And we're supposed to ASSUME that "world" means "every single individual", even though the term does not carry that meaning ANYWHERE in Scripture. First century Gentiles and Jews didn't think of people groups with the "precision" we do today. They didn't think so much in terms of "individuals", as they did in "groups". That's why when Paul was trying to point out that both Jews and Gentiles were sinners in Rom. 3, he had to say that there was NONE who did not sin, "no, NOT ONE" (Rom. 3:12).

The Jews had long been taught that "Salvation was of the Jews". The temple, rituals, and sacrifices, were only for the Jews, not the Gentiles. But part of the message of the gospel is that Gentiles have also been included, hence "world" (Jews + Gentiles).

To more closely study one passage, let's look at the most memorized verse in the Bible:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Isn't it interesting that while it says "God ... loved the WORLD", it also says that only BELIEVERS will be saved. Do you really think that God lets someone end up in hell, but still "loves" them? (Nope, Ps. 5:5, Mal. 1:2-3, etc.) Imagine you're a father. You see your child playing in a busy street, and you "warn" them to get out of the street, but they don't heed your warning. Do you think that any father who didn't FORCEFULLY yank their child out of danger, but let them instead die, "Well, I warned him!", could be considered the least bit "loving"? Of course not.

I've written more comprehensively on the meaning of the world, here.

So that takes care of John 3:14-16, John 4:42, John 6:33, John 12:47, 1 John 2:2, and 1 John 4:14.

Am I saying that you can't make an argument that "world" might mean everyone exhaustively? Not necessarily. But what I AM saying is that you have to do more than simply QUOTE VERSES, and tell them they HAVE to understand it that way.



Who Are "All [Men]"?

"All men" is understood much the same way as "the world". It's extending the SCOPE from "only the Jews", to "the Gentiles as well". The mistake, and I can understand it, is wanting to interpret "all men" as "all INDIVIDUALS", something it doesn't say. I believe it's more accurate to understand it as meaning "all groups/classes" of men. Case in point, let's look at this verse from Revelation:


Rev. 5:9 ... for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people
for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,

Notice that the "every" (Greek, "pas", SAME word as "all") does NOT refer to the "individuals", but instead refers to the people GROUPS ("tribe, and language, and people, and nation").

So again, you can try to make a case that Scripture speaking of Christ dying for "all men" means unlimited atonement, but you would have to actually MAKE AN ARGUMENT, rather than simply assuming the meaning.

I've written more on the use of "all", here.

So that takes care of John 1:7, 29, John 12:32, 1 Tim. 2:4, Heb. 2:9


Missing the Mark

Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

While this doesn't have the word, "us" in the quoted passage, if you start reading from Rom. 5:1, we see that the CONTEXT is limited to those (1) who have been JUSTIFED, and (2) have been GIVEN the Holy Spirit. Ie. NOT "everyone". If you go through the text of Rom. 5:1-12 and highlight every instance of "we", "us", or "our", it becomes obvious that the context is limited.

1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

This is a very interesting passage. Not only does "all men" not necessarily mean, "all individuals" but the Greek word translated as "specially", is the term, "malista", and can be used to mean, "specifically". And even the English term, "specially" means, "with a definite intent, specific person, etc. in mind". So I believe that this simply means God is the Saviour of all believers within all people groups.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Notice that this doesn't say, "bringeth salvation to all men", it says, "hath appeared to all men". So regardless of what the extent of "all men" means, it doesn't say that salvation is for them, only that it's appeared. This is what happens when you simply do a "Bible search" and don't pay attention to the hits. Very sloppy.

2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

This verse has been addressed in detail, here


John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

And finally, this isn't even "universal". It's referring SPECIFICALLY to "that nation".
 
Now, to structure how I'm going to respond, I will present the following outline:

1) Some passages which teach "limited atonement" (or "particular redemption"), which Tom and others don't want you to know about;
2) The proof-texts which are LIMITED and QUALIFIED by a particular group, usually "us";
3) Proof-texts which refer to "the world"
4) Proof-texts which refer to "all [men]".
5) Various proof-texts.


Particular Redemption:

Matt. 1:21
She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus,
for
he will save his people from their sins.

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd.
The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

John 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father;
and I lay down my life for the sheep.

1Cor. 15:3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received,
how that
Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

These are rather weak arguments saying Christ died for the sheep does not preclude Christ dying for others any more than Paul saying Christ died for him precludes others

Gal. 2:20 —KJV
“I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.”

This is a simple negative inference fallacy,

Additionally 1Cor 15:3 is the message Paul preached to all unconverted Corinthians

If anything this is a proof text for unlimited atonement
 
And finally, this isn't even "universal". It's referring SPECIFICALLY to "that nation".
Lets think this through

John 11:51 (KJV 1900)
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;


Christ died for the nation

Was the entire nation elect unto salvation

We know they were not

Therefore Christ died for the non elect destroying the false theory of limited atonement
 
These are rather weak arguments saying Christ died for the sheep does not preclude Christ dying for others any more than Paul saying Christ died for him precludes others

Well, there are a couple of things wrong with your retort:

1) You can't simply ASSUME that Christ died for those who aren't sheep, you have not actually DEMONSTRATE it from scripture. And you have not done so.

2) Based on what Christ said, it is a perfectly VALID inference to make that Christ died for only the sheep. First of all, he gives the metaphor of the shepherd and the sheep. It's not the shepherd's job to lay down his life for someone ELSE's sheep, and it's certainly not his job to lay down his life for wolves or other animals. Secondly, I'm a teacher. If I came into my classroom on the first day of school, and introduced myself, and then said, "I'm the teacher for the boys", that would be a very weird thing for me to say, if I was the teacher for the girls as well. There would be no reason for me to say something so silly, which is why I've never said that in all my years of teaching. The ONLY reasonable reason for someone saying that if he was SPECIFICALLY for teaching the boys, and someone else was to teach the girls.

This is a simple negative inference fallacy,

Additionally 1Cor 15:3 is the message Paul preached to all unconverted Corinthians

That is simply false:

1Cor. 15:1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,

Why didn't Paul say, "that Christ died for EVERYONE'S sins..."?
Why did he limit it to "our" (referring to him and his "brothers")?
 
Who is the "World"?

Many of Tom's "proof-texts" refer to Christ dying for "the world" (Greek, "kosmos"). And we're supposed to ASSUME that "world" means "every single individual", even though the term does not carry that meaning ANYWHERE in Scripture. First century Gentiles and Jews didn't think of people groups with the "precision" we do today. They didn't think so much in terms of "individuals", as they did in "groups". That's why when Paul was trying to point out that both Jews and Gentiles were sinners in Rom. 3, he had to say that there was NONE who did not sin, "no, NOT ONE" (Rom. 3:12).

The Jews had long been taught that "Salvation was of the Jews". The temple, rituals, and sacrifices, were only for the Jews, not the Gentiles. But part of the message of the gospel is that Gentiles have also been included, hence "world" (Jews + Gentiles).

To more closely study one passage, let's look at the most memorized verse in the Bible:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Isn't it interesting that while it says "God ... loved the WORLD", it also says that only BELIEVERS will be saved. Do you really think that God lets someone end up in hell, but still "loves" them? (Nope, Ps. 5:5, Mal. 1:2-3, etc.) Imagine you're a father. You see your child playing in a busy street, and you "warn" them to get out of the street, but they don't heed your warning. Do you think that any father who didn't FORCEFULLY yank their child out of danger, but let them instead die, "Well, I warned him!", could be considered the least bit "loving"? Of course not.

I've written more comprehensively on the meaning of the world, here.

So that takes care of John 3:14-16, John 4:42, John 6:33, John 12:47, 1 John 2:2, and 1 John 4:14.

Am I saying that you can't make an argument that "world" might mean everyone exhaustively? Not necessarily. But what I AM saying is that you have to do more than simply QUOTE VERSES, and tell them they HAVE to understand it that way.



Who Are "All [Men]"?

"All men" is understood much the same way as "the world". It's extending the SCOPE from "only the Jews", to "the Gentiles as well". The mistake, and I can understand it, is wanting to interpret "all men" as "all INDIVIDUALS", something it doesn't say. I believe it's more accurate to understand it as meaning "all groups/classes" of men. Case in point, let's look at this verse from Revelation:


Rev. 5:9 ... for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people
for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,

Notice that the "every" (Greek, "pas", SAME word as "all") does NOT refer to the "individuals", but instead refers to the people GROUPS ("tribe, and language, and people, and nation").

So again, you can try to make a case that Scripture speaking of Christ dying for "all men" means unlimited atonement, but you would have to actually MAKE AN ARGUMENT, rather than simply assuming the meaning.

I've written more on the use of "all", here.

So that takes care of John 1:7, 29, John 12:32, 1 Tim. 2:4, Heb. 2:9


Missing the Mark



While this doesn't have the word, "us" in the quoted passage, if you start reading from Rom. 5:1, we see that the CONTEXT is limited to those (1) who have been JUSTIFED, and (2) have been GIVEN the Holy Spirit. Ie. NOT "everyone". If you go through the text of Rom. 5:1-12 and highlight every instance of "we", "us", or "our", it becomes obvious that the context is limited.



This is a very interesting passage. Not only does "all men" not necessarily mean, "all individuals" but the Greek word translated as "specially", is the term, "malista", and can be used to mean, "specifically". And even the English term, "specially" means, "with a definite intent, specific person, etc. in mind". So I believe that this simply means God is the Saviour of all believers within all people groups.
To believe Theo one must believe the Holy spirit was incredibly poor at communicating truth

Using words and terms like world , all, all men , every man to communicate the giving of the son for but some men

Lets deal with the word world

John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

World in context includes unbelievers whop will be judged at the last day



this is a parallel text to

John 3:16–18 —KJV
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”


Where God sent his son to save the world- He gave his only begotten son

The same world as seen in John 12:47-48 which as was seen includes unbelievers

It does here as well - he that believeth not is condemned already

God gave his son for these condemned individuals
 
Well, there are a couple of things wrong with your retort:

1) You can't simply ASSUME that Christ died for those who aren't sheep, you have not actually DEMONSTRATE it from scripture. And you have not done so.

2) Based on what Christ said, it is a perfectly VALID inference to make that Christ died for only the sheep. First of all, he gives the metaphor of the shepherd and the sheep. It's not the shepherd's job to lay down his life for someone ELSE's sheep, and it's certainly not his job to lay down his life for wolves or other animals. Secondly, I'm a teacher. If I came into my classroom on the first day of school, and introduced myself, and then said, "I'm the teacher for the boys", that would be a very weird thing for me to say, if I was the teacher for the girls as well. There would be no reason for me to say something so silly, which is why I've never said that in all my years of teaching. The ONLY reasonable reason for someone saying that if he was SPECIFICALLY for teaching the boys, and someone else was to teach the girls.



That is simply false:

1Cor. 15:1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,

Why didn't Paul say, "that Christ died for EVERYONE'S sins..."?
Why did he limit it to "our" (referring to him and his "brothers")?
Really ? read the text

1 Cor. 15:1–11 —KJV
Ҧ Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.”

Who was Paul preaching to - Unconverted Corinthians

What did he preach - Christ died for our sins

What did the Corinthians believe - Christ died for our sins
 
To believe Theo one must believe the Holy spirit was incredibly poor at communicating truth

Not at all.

Using words and terms like world , all, all men , every man to communicate the giving of the son for but some men

<sigh>
This is fallacious argumentation.
Your argument only works because you ASSUME that "men" means "individuals".
"All men" doesn't mean "all individuals".

Lets deal with the word world

John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

World in context includes unbelievers whop will be judged at the last day

Okay, now we see that to believe Tom one must believe the Holy spirit was incredibly poor at communicating truth.

Tom claims, "The word 'world' means "every single individual".
Jesus claims, "I came ... to SAVE the 'world'."

So if both are true, you made Jesus a liar, and a failure.
Good job, Tom!

It does here as well - he that believeth not is condemned already

Yes, he's condemned "ALREADY" because he's a sinner, who was never elected for salvation!

God gave his son for these condemned individuals

Nope.
Not Biblical at ALL.

But you make God UNJUST for punishing sinners in hell, after (YOU claim) their sins were ALREADY paid for on the cross!
 

<sigh>
Yes, "really".
Stop being so insulting.

read the text

<sigh>
I already READ the text.
I've read it HUNDREDS of times.
Stop being so insulting.

(But thank you for reminding me why I originally put you on "ignore".)

1 Cor. 15:1–11 —KJV
Ҧ Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

"brethren".... "which also you RECEIVED"....

Why don't YOU try to "read the text", Tom?

By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

See where it says "our" (Paul and his "brethren"), not "everyone's sins"?

Sorry, but YOU need to "read the text".
 
I shared some of Jesus Christs own words testifying to limited atonement, in that He specifcally stated He died for the many, not all, save all of the many, and that He died for His Sheep.

Now lets observe some other scriptures that denote the scope of the death of Christ was limited to a certain, specified people.

Isa 53 observe:

Isa 53:11,12

He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their[many] iniquities.


Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

In Vs 11 the many has the definite article denoting a specific many !

BTW this would be some of the Old Test scriptures Paul would use to preach the Gospel when proclaiming Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures 1 Cor 15:3
 
<sigh>
Yes, "really".
Stop being so insulting.



<sigh>
I already READ the text.
I've read it HUNDREDS of times.
Stop being so insulting.

(But thank you for reminding me why I originally put you on "ignore".)



"brethren".... "which also you RECEIVED"....

Why don't YOU try to "read the text", Tom?



See where it says "our" (Paul and his "brethren"), not "everyone's sins"?

Sorry, but YOU need to "read the text".
Insult ?

There was no insult

Again I ask

Who was Paul preaching to when he arrived at Corinth ? - unconverted Corinthians

What did he preach ? Christ died for our sins

What did the unconverted Corinthians believe ? - Christ died for our sins

Which can you disagree with ?
 
Insult ?

There was no insult

Again I ask

Who was Paul preaching to when he arrived at Corinth ? - unconverted Corinthians

What did he preach ? Christ died for our sins

What did the unconverted Corinthians believe ? - Christ died for our sins

Which can you disagree with ?
Who said they were unconverted? Were you there? It is written to the "at Cornith" right?
 
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