Logical arguments and even miracles don't really prove anything

Tercon

Well-known member
No, education does, then I believe it, when it's been shown to be true. I can't believe a proposition until it's been shown true by education.

Well if your belief comes after your knowledge of the truth and reality, then it must be your intellect that makes the truth and reality known to you, rather than your belief.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Yes, exactly.

Well the truth and reality isn't knowable to you then, because belief is necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to you. You are not doing what is required of you to make the truth and reality known to you. The truth and reality doesn't care about your opinion or intellect, because the only way the truth and reality gives up its prize is through belief.
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
In reality you "think it true that the Earth orbits the sun" because you believe it is true, that's why.

But you said... "Well the truth and reality isn't knowable to you then,"

You need to make your mind up and be consistent. Do I know it or not? As it is you're all over the place indicating you haven't thought this all through properly.
 
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Nouveau

Well-known member
In reality you "think it true that the Earth orbits the sun" because you believe it is true, that's why.
Thinking something to be true is the same thing as believing it to be true, so what you are describing is self-causation, which is impossible.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Thinking something to be true is the same thing as believing it to be true, so what you are describing is self-causation, which is impossible.

Actually it's entailment. It's the same as believing something is true entails they assume and think it true as well.

But you can't believe to disbelieve. You either believe or disbelieve something exists, you can't do both at the same time concerning the same thing. It is a violation of the Law of Non-contradiction.

But the reason people TRY to do it is because unbelief has no way of making anything to exist or occur, because unbelief has no object of belief that can make anything known to exist or occur.
 

Algor

Well-known member
Actually the point here is how YOU know or experience what other people can't themselves silly.



You mean suppress the truth with your delusional unbelieving mind. YOU can't know or experience anything without belief or a mind; including what others know or experience silly.



Thank You, silly.



So, you don't believe anything about what you are perceiving with your physical senses?



Delusions are the same forever. People who think they can know or experience anything without a believing mind are and will always be delusional, because all knowledge of the truth and reality without exception REQUIRES a believing mind in order to be known and experienced silly. And this never changes.



Okay. So, if YOU don't BELIEVE that there is something called "brainstem reflex" that requires belief or a mind in order to make it known to exist or occur, then YOU must DISBELIEVE that there is something called "brainstem reflex" that requires belief or a mind in order to make it known that it occurs, is this what you are asserting?



If you aren't referring to some kind of "knowledge", then you aren't referring to the truth or denoting reality silly, because all truth and reality is belief based knowledge.



Because you can't tell me how you know this without a mind, belief and knowledge silly.



But how do you know what you are perceiving without a mind and belief silly?



Well, if YOU say "brainstem reflex" exists and occurs without belief or a mind, but YOU can't say how and why YOU believe and know "brainstem reflex" exists and occurs without a believing mind or knowledge making it known to you, then it must be a delusion on YOUR part, because all knowledge of the truth and reality requires and entails a belief and mind.



Again. How do YOU know that "a person can react to" anything when all knowledge of any kind of occurrence requires and entails a believing mind in order to exist and occur? And I am not asking about what another "person" knows, because frankly YOU don't and can't know what another person knows or experiences unless they inform you. So, I am asking about how and why YOU know about anything that exists or occurs; understand?



Again, if you say that the truth and reality is "irrelevant" here, then just what are YOU referring to and denoting here silly?

I am asking YOU how YOU KNOW all this stuff YOU say you KNOW about "Decorticate people"?

Is what YOU know about "Decorticate people" dependent on a believing mind or not?



How do YOU KNOW what "Decorticate people" know and experience, when everything YOU KNOW requires and entails a believing mind in order for YOU to KNOW silly?



But how do YOU KNOW YOU are perceiving something without believing YOU are perceiving it silly?



Thank You. And you have conceded.

So, stop pretending someone else can, when no-one including YOU can KNOW what another person knows and experiences without them informing YOU. Understand?



And just how do YOU KNOW anything about "perception and reality" can exist or occur without or outside of a believing mind, when in reality every bit of truth and perception that YOU KNOW required and entails a believing mind in order to be known to exist and occur?
Tsk. The fact that I can't know anything without a mind does not imply that perception has to occur with a mind. We can see that people incapable of ideation percieve things. My perception of their perception does not cause their perception.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Tsk. The fact that I can't know anything without a mind does not imply that perception has to occur with a mind. We can see that people incapable of ideation percieve things. My perception of their perception does not cause their perception.

How do you know what they are perceiving when you can't know anything about what they are experiencing without experiencing it for yourself silly. All you are doing is describing what you are perceiving and experiencing and not what they are silly.
 

Algor

Well-known member
How do you know what they are perceiving when you can't know anything about what they are experiencing without experiencing it for yourself silly.
I can know that somebody perceives something without sharing their experience. Basic neurophysiology. My perception does not cause their perception.
 
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