Logical arguments and even miracles don't really prove anything

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
Everything you said is true. What all this ^^^^^ suggests is Prisca theologia. Look it up on Wikipedia.

Prisca theologia ("ancient theology") is the doctrine that asserts that a single, true theology exists, which threads through all religions, and which was anciently given by God to man.

Christianity, like other religions, e.g., Judaism, and Greek religions, borrowed ideas (i.e., underlying truths) from other religions (e.g., Biblical Noah’s flood from Chaldean Epic of Gilgamesh) and rewrote them into a new scriptural narrative. The people who originally understood the underlying truths and wrote them were a minority. The later people who literalize the myths and claim their religion is unique and that everyone else is going to hell are the misled. There happens to be more of them than the former group so they do a lot of harm to the underlying truth.

IOW, the few in every generation who perceive the better meaning of scripture are the ones whom God is revealing himself. All this other bickering and arguing whose religion is better is from those who don’t know what any of it actually meant to those who wrote it. It is why I spend so much time reading the best from each religion because everything else is just noise.

Go read Plutarch, “Isis and Osiris”, who as a priest for Apollo in the first century expounds on the Greek/Egyptian meaning of the myths and complains about the rabble who literalize the Myths. The point is that this ^^^^^^ has been going on since humans began writing scripture. The trick is to tune out the noise and cling to the good.

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me—practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.” (Phillippians 4:8)
I would suggest that what my post suggests is not Prisca theologia (thanks for the info - I'd not heard of it and have now learned some about it) is rather that all religion is actually bunk. Certainly (virtually?) all religions have a central core doctrine that is similar, but I don't believe that that necessarily points to a truth that they all have. Rather it points to a central human impulse of a huge creator-figure who will protect, right all wrongs and, in the end, show that *I* am correct. I suggest that while convenient and reassuring, there is no need to actually believe such a being exists.
 

Algor

Well-known member
I would suggest that what my post suggests is not Prisca theologia (thanks for the info - I'd not heard of it and have now learned some about it) is rather that all religion is actually bunk. Certainly (virtually?) all religions have a central core doctrine that is similar, but I don't believe that that necessarily points to a truth that they all have. Rather it points to a central human impulse of a huge creator-figure who will protect, right all wrongs and, in the end, show that *I* am correct. I suggest that while convenient and reassuring, there is no need to actually believe such a being exists.
OK, but do you really think that's the only thing religions point to?
 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
I don't think my argument was that something on Matt's show could not do something beyond his understanding and be what he was demanding, but rather that his method of looking for it seems lazy and half-haphazard. How can you look for something you can't define and don't know what it is? What if I said to you, "I don't know what would make me an atheist, but go ahead and try," then simply declared all of your responses insufficient. Do you think I'm clear-headed and sincere? Since I don't know what would make me believe X I'm just randomly shooting in the dark.
If you provided arguments against all of my responses, yes, I'd think you were clear-headed and sincere. But the comparison isn't valid. Unlike atheism, Christianity features an all-knowing being who knows precisely what it would take to learn the truth and come to him, even if I don't know it. He could present it to me (or Matt) at any moment. Yet he doesn't. The same is not true of atheism.
I would reiterate again that miracles, althoughly commonly cited as a "good start" to believe in God, don't logically work out to prove anything. This illustrates people, in fact, do not operate or work by logic. They want to think of themselves as "logical" as a method of self-affirmation and false confidence, but they don't strictly want to see where logic actually leads.
Could you clarify this a bit? I'm not sure why the fact that "miracles, althoughly commonly cited as a "good start" to believe in God, don't logically work out to prove anything" illustrates that "people, in fact, do not operate or work by logic".
 

Gus Bovona

Well-known member
How can you look for something you can't define and don't know what it is? What if I said to you, "I don't know what would make me an atheist, but go ahead and try," then simply declared all of your responses insufficient. Do you think I'm clear-headed and sincere? Since I don't know what would make me believe X I'm just randomly shooting in the dark.

I think you're exaggerating the situation and the problem:

Analogy: I don't know what the cure for cancer is, but we'll know we have it when we seen cancer going away in a patient.

Matt: I don't know what would change my mind about God, but God would know, and I would recognize that I've changed my mind.

Analogy: No, a coffee enema is not what cures cancer.

Matt: No, the Bible is not convincing evidence that yahweh exists.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Quote box removed
Ok.
Just how do you think this works in an environment where words are the only means of communication, and previous attempts to get together so this can actually be shown in real life have not just been dismissed, but ridiculed and mocked?



Quote box removed.
I have a novel idea.

Demonstrate how you think this is played out in a written medium/forum.

Let us see it.
 
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Tiburon

Well-known member
Of course God knows if they're being honest but God knows that too and he doesn't just take what they say among men.....that they need more proof. One can even claim they're making an honest evaluation and maybe are even deceiving themselves but if their same reasoning is compared to other subjects or themes sometimes their assessments are totally biased....and really not honest regardless of how much they claim they are.

e.g. One could throw up in the air the thousand parts of an automobile and nobody would believe those part could all fall to the ground all put together and in working order. No body could believe that. And yet people can look at creation and clam they can't believe God exists when they see intelligent design all around them. Their claim of not being convinced will not be allowed. Rom 1:20
I'm not talking about judging men based on what they claim. If God is all knowing then he should know the truth.

"Their claim of not being convinced will not be allowed" It wont be allowed by believers who want to bolster their beliefs and disavow any possibility of being wrong.
The automobile argument isn't the same as the "creation" argument. We can see cars being designed and manufactured. We haven't seen anything being created ex nihilo.
 

Furion

Well-known member
I'm not talking about judging men based on what they claim. If God is all knowing then he should know the truth.
That is simultaneously true and the problem, for man.

God does know every though and intentions of the heart to go with the action.

It is there you will find His other contention, your sin.

I mean we all inherently know that if God be God, then He knows, ya know?

Now we all make excuses for our own sins, I know I have. But some come to a bizarre conclusion, that they have no sin.

Now I know anyone who says that to me is just pulling my leg, or is weighed down with delusions of grandeur.

So it comes full circle. From your sin to Christ to God, with a truth-o-meter judging it all.
 

Tiburon

Well-known member
That is simultaneously true and the problem, for man.

God does know every though and intentions of the heart to go with the action.

It is there you will find His other contention, your sin.

I mean we all inherently know that if God be God, then He knows, ya know?

Now we all make excuses for our own sins, I know I have. But some come to a bizarre conclusion, that they have no sin.

Now I know anyone who says that to me is just pulling my leg, or is weighed down with delusions of grandeur.

So it comes full circle. From your sin to Christ to God, with a truth-o-meter judging it all.
If people say they have no sin it is not because they think they have done no wrong.
It is because to sin is to transgress against God. If you don't believe in a God then you also don't believe that it is possible to transgress against him.
 

Furion

Well-known member
If people say they have no sin it is not because they think they have done no wrong.
Yes, I know why an atheist may say that. It's not thought through very well, just a sophistry.
It is because to sin is to transgress against God. If you don't believe in a God then you also don't believe that it is possible to transgress against him.
If that gives you more comfort to be understood in that way, I get that as well.

I don't think the word sin is needed to get the point across.

The more important point is I know what is common to all men, being one myself.

Atheists believe in inexistence, there can be no eternal consequences for temporary actions.

Which ironically means this existence you live right now is your conscious eternity, and the punishment will be being eternally silenced.
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
When I'm asked this question I answer with, if something was prayed for that we know is impossible and it happened. So a miracle I suppose, the well known example being a lost limb growing back. If you prayed for all disease to stop overnight and it did, that would really get my attention. It would be something that would really count. I'm not trying to be offensive in reply to your respectful post, but I would guess that most Christians in their hearts know that this sort of thing would never happen hence the often used, you shouldn't put the Lord to the test.
Prove to me that You're no fool Walk across my swimming pool.

This shows the typical CARM atheist attitude. Have a listen.
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
What if the truth is not what you think it is?
Do you know what TRUTH is?

“What is truth?” Pilate asked. And having said this, he went out again to the Jews and told them, “I find no basis for a charge against Him John 18:38
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
Urgh. Please don't send me a link like that again.

I answered the OP as best I could. What's your point?
Atheist tend to be very obnoxious...nothing will be accepted as proof...never acknowledging that and unless God moves they can't respond to Gods call.
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
Atheist tend to be very obnoxious..
That's very obnoxious of you.
nothing will be accepted as proof...
But, I said in my answer to the OP what I would accept as proof.
never acknowledging that and unless God moves they can't respond to Gods call.
There is no proof of God. Do you understand what proof is? That which demonstrates something as a fact. Nothing demonstares God as a fact.
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
That's very obnoxious of you.

Do you honestly think I care about that?
But, I said in my answer to the OP what I would accept as proof.

Big deal, you need to watch a limb grow back...or all disease to stop overnight....and to be even more obnoxious you forget...GOD DOESN'T NEED YOU. Humble yourself and understand that.
There is no proof of God. Do you understand what proof is? That which demonstrates something as a fact. Nothing demonstares God as a fact.
There is nothing that demonstrates that God is not a fact.
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
Do you honestly think I care about that?
It appears not. So much for higher Christian morality.
Big deal, you need to watch a limb grow back...or all disease to stop overnight....and to be even more obnoxious you forget...GOD DOESN'T NEED YOU. Humble yourself and understand that.
Irrelevant to the point. I was asked what would show me God existed and I replied honestly. Now I'm being attacked because of it by a so called Christian.
There is nothing that demonstrates that God is not a fact.
The formation of snowflakes is well understood and nowhere in the explanation is God.
 
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