Look for God in the ONLY way and place that He can known to occur to you.

Nouveau

Well-known member
So, the thing ("object permanence") that makes reality known to you can be known to "occur and exist without being dependent upon any mind". But at the same time that thing ("object permanence") that you say makes the truth and reality known to you can't be known to exist nor occur without a believing mind to make it known to occur and give it its existence? Quite illogical and false.
I agree that what you just said is illogical and false. However, it bears no resemblance to anything I actually said.

Your "object permanence" is a phantasm and just the product of deluded minds. AKA a lie and you find yourself self-deceived.
I see you still haven't bothered to learn what object permanence is.
 

Tiburon

Well-known member
Strawman. No, that's according to the truth and reality. According to the truth and reality the only way and place anything can be known to exist and occur is in and with a believing mind. And outside of a believing mind nothing is able to be known to exist or occur.



If we believe and trust the truth and reality we get to know and participate in and with it like a close relationship, like a Father and child relationship. But if we disbelieve the truth and reality and don't know nor participate in and with it, you start working against it, rather than with it. And then the truth and reality becomes a dangerous place to be, because unbelievers still fall under its consequences, AKA its wrath. The truth and reality becomes your enemy instead of your friend and ally. It destroys rather than helps you, not because of anything it does to you intentionally, but because you oppose it and make it your enemy. And all because you refuse to believe it.

So, the truth and reality originated and is the result of a Believing Mind. But the Original Believing Mind is God's, Good old Dad is in the driver seat and us believers are just along for the ride, for now anyway.
Does God observe and is that observing enough for WFC and entanglement to occur?
I don't refuse to believe anything. I will believe any proposition If there is sufficient supporting evidence. Show me the evidence that supports the truth and reality of God.
 
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Tercon

Well-known member
I agree that what you just said is illogical and false. However, it bears no resemblance to anything I actually said.

It is in fact the logical implication of your statement. Because if the thing that makes something known to you isn't "dependent upon any mind" or not a believing mind in order to make it known to you, then just what are YOU using to make reality known to YOU, if not your own mind silly?

I see you still haven't bothered to learn what object permanence is.

I see that it is the product of deluded minds. And all you are doing here is projecting your unbelief, because you have rejected belief as a means to make the truth and reality known.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
So God doesn't have a believing mind?

Everything that exists and occurs is the result of a Believing Mind; and the original Believing Minds is God's.

I don't refuse to believe anything.

You refuse to believe that the truth and reality is the result of a believing mind, when the truth and reality can't be known to exist and occur anywhere else but in and with a believing mind.

I will believe any proposition If there is sufficient supporting evidence. Show me the evidence that supports the truth and reality of God.

The truth of God exists and supports the reality of God, because outside of a Believing Mind nothing can be known to exist or occur. And to suggest otherwise, is simply self-refuting.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
It is in fact the logical implication of your statement. Because if the thing that makes something known to you isn't "dependent upon any mind" or not a believing mind in order to make it known to you, then just what are YOU using to make reality known to YOU, if not your own mind silly?
You were just strawmanning because you still don't have the faintest idea what object permanence is.

I see that it is the product of deluded minds. And all you are doing here is projecting your unbelief, because you have rejected belief as a means to make the truth and reality known.
More strawmanning. Maybe you should try learning what object permanence is.
 

Tiburon

Well-known member
You refuse to believe that the truth and reality is the result of a believing mind, when the truth and reality can't be known to exist and occur anywhere else but in and with a believing mind.
'Belief' in truth and reality is the result of a believing mind. But a a believing mind does not create truth and reality. If that were so then everything that everyone believes would be true and real. As people have conflicting beliefs this cannot be the case.

The truth of God exists and supports the reality of God, because outside of a Believing Mind nothing can be known to exist or occur. And to suggest otherwise, is simply self-refuting.
You continue to conflate existing with being 'known' to exist. You have yet to provide evidence of the truth and the reality of God.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
'Belief' in truth and reality is the result of a believing mind. But a a believing mind does not create truth and reality. If that were so then everything that everyone believes would be true and real. As people have conflicting beliefs this cannot be the case.

Strawman. I am not referring to people's believing minds, but God's believing mind that the truth and reality originated. And the only reason "people have conflicting beliefs" is not because of belief, but rather because of unbelief, when some disbelieve the truth and choose to wallow around in the abyss. However, a believing mind is still the ONLY thing that can make the truth and reality known and it is the only place that the truth and reality can be known to reside. And it is only people who seek the truth and reality get to know it.

You continue to conflate existing with being 'known' to exist. You have yet to provide evidence of the truth and the reality of God.

There's nothing knowable outside of belief and knowledge, because if you aren't referring to any kind of knowledge and something that can be known when you say "existing", then you are denoting nothing. You are entertaining yourself by wallowing in the nothingness again.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Strawman. I am not referring to people's believing minds, but God's believing mind that the truth and reality originated. And the only reason "people have conflicting beliefs" is not because of belief, but rather because of unbelief, when some disbelieve the truth and choose to wallow around in the abyss. However, a believing mind is still the ONLY thing that can make the truth and reality known and it is the only place that the truth and reality can be known to reside. And it is only people who seek the truth and reality get to know it.

There's nothing knowable outside of belief and knowledge, because if you aren't referring to any kind of knowledge and something that can be known when you say "existing", then you are denoting nothing. You are entertaining yourself by wallowing in the nothingness again.
Have you ever had an IQ test, Tercon?
 

Tercon

Well-known member
You were just strawmanning because you still don't have the faintest idea what object permanence is.

Evasion. I know that "object permanence" is a delusion and I have explained why I know it's a delusion. And you haven't refuted it.

More strawmanning. Maybe you should try learning what object permanence is.

You should try the truth and reality and stop wallowing in nonsense.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
I know that "object permanence" is a delusion and I have explained why I know it's a delusion.
No you haven't. You still don't have the faintest idea what object permanence is. You certainly never read the Wikipedia article on it that I linked you to.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Have you ever tried dealing with the truth and reality, instead of trying to make up your own?
You can't do it, can you? You just can't answer without dodging and asking your own question instead. That's called evasion.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
No you haven't. You still don't have the faintest idea what object permanence is. You certainly never read the Wikipedia article on it that I linked you to.

Logic and QM debunks "object permanence", because according to logic and QM; Wave Function Collapse, entanglement, truth and reality requires and entails a believing mind in order to exist and occur. And outside of a believing mind none of these things has a way or place that they can be known to exist or occur.

You can't do it, can you? You just can't answer without dodging and asking your own question instead. That's called evasion.

You don't ask questions about the truth and reality, you ask questions about your delusions. What do I have to answer or add to your delusions silly?

You can't deal with the truth and reality can you, because as soon as you do you are exposed for the deluded person you are. That's called self-deceived and separation from the truth and reality of God.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Logic and QM debunks "object permanence", because according to logic and QM; Wave Function Collapse, entanglement, truth and reality requires and entails a believing mind in order to exist and occur. And outside of a believing mind none of these things has a way or place that they can be known to exist or occur.
You know even less about QM than you do about object permanence. Why don't you try learning what object permanence actually is, so you can at least have an informed opinion instead of spouting ignorance?

You don't ask questions about the truth and reality, you ask questions about your delusions. What do I have to answer or add to your delusions silly?

You can't deal with the truth and reality can you, because as soon as you do you are exposed for the deluded person you are. That's called self-deceived and separation from the truth and reality of God.
Why can't you just answer without evasion like a normal person?
 

Tercon

Well-known member
You know even less about QM than you do about object permanence. Why don't you try learning what object permanence actually is, so you can at least have an informed opinion instead of spouting ignorance?

Why don't you try learning how and why the truth and reality works the way it does silly? QM requires and entails a believing mind for its existence, because outside of a believing mind nothing including QM can be known to exist or occur.

And the only one here "spouting ignorance" is you, when you pretend anything can be known to exist and occur outside a believing mind silly?

Why can't you just answer without evasion like a normal person?

Try dealing with the truth and reality, then you will have something to ask a question about silly.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Why don't you try learning how and why the truth and reality works the way it does silly? QM requires and entails a believing mind for its existence, because outside of a believing mind nothing including QM can be known to exist or occur.

And the only one here "spouting ignorance" is you, when you pretend anything can be known to exist and occur outside a believing mind silly?
Off-topic. We're not talking about QM. We're talking about object permanence as a means to knowing that existence does not require a mind. Are you ready to start learning what object permanence is?

Try dealing with the truth and reality, then you will have something to ask a question about silly.
I did ask a question. You evaded as you always do.
 

Tiburon

Well-known member
Strawman. I am not referring to people's believing minds, but God's believing mind that the truth and reality originated. And the only reason "people have conflicting beliefs" is not because of belief, but rather because of unbelief, when some disbelieve the truth and choose to wallow around in the abyss. However, a believing mind is still the ONLY thing that can make the truth and reality known and it is the only place that the truth and reality can be known to reside. And it is only people who seek the truth and reality get to know it.



There's nothing knowable outside of belief and knowledge, because if you aren't referring to any kind of knowledge and something that can be known when you say "existing", then you are denoting nothing. You are entertaining yourself by wallowing in the nothingness again.
If you are referring to God's believing mind then say 'God's believing mind'.

What beliefs, 'that people have', are you talking about? All beliefs or only beliefs about God?
In either case you are wrong. You are simply claiming that those people who don't have the same beliefs as you have 'unbeliefs' and so what you claim about belief doesn't apply. You are redefining terms in an attempt to make your argument true.
There are plenty of people who seek the truth and reality that have come to embrace vastly different beliefs. How can you decide who has the correct beliefs?

There's nothing knowable outside of what is known? Are we talking about the mind of God again? Does that mean that there is nothing that we don't know?
When we discover something new does that mean it has only just popped into existence at the moment of discovery?
 

Tercon

Well-known member
If you are referring to God's believing mind then say 'God's believing mind'.

What beliefs, 'that people have', are you talking about? All beliefs or only beliefs about God? In either case you are wrong.

When I refer to God's believing mind; I am denoting that all the truth and reality is the result of a His believing mind, because outside of a believing mind, nothing can be known to exist or occur. So, if there is only way and place that the truth and reality can be known to exist and occur, then that way and place must be the truth and reality's origin.

And if the ONLY way and place that the truth and reality can be known to exist and occur is in and with a believing mind, and outside a believing mind nothing can be known to exist or occur, then the truth and reality must have originated in and with Someone's believing mind.

You are simply claiming that those people who don't have the same beliefs as you have 'unbeliefs' and so what you claim about belief doesn't apply. You are redefining terms in an attempt to make your argument true.

Strawman. Actually what I am claiming is true and represents reality.
And FYI, "unbelief" doesn't exist, because unbelief is just a word to describe "doing nothing" or something that doesn't occur, AKA "a lack of belief". Beliefs occur in reality, but unbelief is just the lack of belief. So, unbelief lacks a object of belief, so it can't be known to exist in reality.


There are plenty of people who seek the truth and reality that have come to embrace vastly different beliefs. How can you decide who has the correct beliefs?

If the truth and reality is the product of God's believing mind, then He's the only One who knows how and why the truth and reality is known. And He tell us how and why the truth and reality is known to us right here.

There's nothing knowable outside of what is known?

Actually there is nothing knowable outside of a believing mind.

Are we talking about the mind of God again?

No. I am talking about us too here. We can't know anything without a believing mind, because the truth and reality requires and entails belief before it is known to us.

Does that mean that there is nothing that we don't know?

It means that if we believe in accord with God; in His truth and reality, there isn't any truth and reality we can't know. When one believes God they too embody the truth and reality, they become a part of and get to participate in and with of the truth and reality. His truth and reality becomes ours too.

When we discover something new does that mean it has only just popped into existence at the moment of discovery?

No. If it is true and a part of reality, then it originated in and with God's believing mind first, and we have to believe it before it is known to be true by us. I think at this point as a believer, we are just a passenger and Dad is still driving and calling all the shots.

QM is very interesting, because these experiments show how physicality occurs and becomes a part of His reality. We are watching physical creation occur in real-time.
 
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