Looking for Help - Again...

RiJoRi

Well-known member
I'm so glad you asked that. Thank you. I'm interested in what you think...was it...

...My lack of faith? Do you think? It certainly wasn't hers or anyone else's...she was dying in hospice care...Some would rather think it's my false doctrine...because there is no way they would consider their own lack of faith. It's important to think about.
Me? I'm sticking with Matt. 6:10b & Matt. 26:39. Basically, God has a will of His own, and "Father Knows Best." :) I'll pray, lay on hands, anoint with oil (if requested) and leave the outcome to God.
I have learned not to ask "why". My Lord said believers will lay their hands on the sick and they will recover. I only have two responsibilities there, not three...Believe what He said, and do what He said. The recovery is not up to me.
(That makes it sound like God's workings are difficult to comprehend, which makes Him inscrutable.)
There are two things I have learned without asking why: First, Jesus did warn of a time where darkness comes and no one can work. There was to be a time where faith believed despite all evidence to the contrary. Faith is only evidenced by our deeds and our words. The dawn is the evidence of a coming day, where work begins afresh. Look, darkness covers the nations and deep darkness the peoples...This is not a time to waver in our faith, but to believe.
TRUE!
But more than that...I think this is a vital principle: If faith is as a mustard seed, then I don't lack faith at all. I only lack tree: If the faith is well planted and I believe what Jesus said, if I water the Word daily and abide in it...then eventually the tree grows and provides shelter. But not at first. I serve a God Who did not do a single miracle for thirty years of His amazing life. Everything leads me to believe He lost His father Joseph at an early age...although this cannot be proven; Joseph never appears in the later years, as Mary does. So presumably Jesus watched his father die.

I do not believe there is a problem with believing but not yet seeing. I DO believe that unbelief is an issue that the church, historically, dealt poorly with. I have no doubt that the dogma that "tongues are not for today" was first taught by self-styled pastors, self-satisfied without the gift...who proved that the gift no longer existed by virtue of the "fact" that they, teacher and pastor, did not have the gift.
I've heard it went back to "Bible - Chopper" Montanus. (My nickname for him.)
"I laid hands on the sick...she died...therefore Jesus did not mean what He said, or it is no longer true." I do not believe that is how scripture should be judged. WoF says, "God said it. It is true. Come...to believe."
And cessationism is an attempt to understand why. (Whether it is a good or bad idea is something else.) WHY - since Jesus gave us a "carte blanche" - did my pastor (along with so many others) die in the Justinian Plague?
As long as there is apparent conflict between what the Word says and people see, "Why?" will be asked, and people will try to answer.

--Rich
 

Mikey1967

Member
Me? I'm sticking with Matt. 6:10b & Matt. 26:39. Basically, God has a will of His own, and "Father Knows Best." :) I'll pray, lay on hands, anoint with oil (if requested) and leave the outcome to God.
Question: Yes, He has a will. What if He has shown us it is His will to heal and not some shot in the dark where we say I cannot know so therefore there is no need from me to lay hands on the sick?
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
Me? I'm sticking with Matt. 6:10b & Matt. 26:39. Basically, God has a will of His own, and "Father Knows Best." :) I'll pray, lay on hands, anoint with oil (if requested) and leave the outcome to God.
WoF teaches we have the inside scoop. Psalm 103 says "heals all my diseases", and we believe "all" means "all," and benefits are benefits. The pesky faith thing is the problem, and I do not have license to derive "God's will" from my circumstances, but from scripture alone.
(That makes it sound like God's workings are difficult to comprehend, which makes Him inscrutable.)
Wahahah...bet you think you got me. No...He is not inscrutable, but I am not what I will be: Moses began when he was eighty. Jesus did no miracle until He was thirty. Trees do not bear fruit when the seed goes into the ground. They have a lot of growing to do, before they bear...and we are told to allow the tree to bear for years before we reap a harvest.
And the day is at hand.

I've heard it went back to "Bible - Chopper" Montanus. (My nickname for him.)
Don't forget that Montanus was rejected by Rome...the Maryolater. Montanus wasn't chopping Bibles, and there's good evidence that his was one of the first charismatic revivals in history.

And cessationism is an attempt to understand why. (Whether it is a good or bad idea is something else.) WHY - since Jesus gave us a "carte blanche" - did my pastor (along with so many others) die in the Justinian Plague?
Naaah. It was a pathway to make "theological" excuses for unbelief, because nothing seemed to be "working" like it used to when folks who knew God were around.
As long as there is apparent conflict between what the Word says and people see, "Why?" will be asked, and people will try to answer.

--Rich
And that is what makes this forum so enjoyable...I agree. But I have liked some of the answers I've found. Faith, like trees grow from seeds, it does not spring up fruit bearing, like Athena fully armored from the head of Zeus.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
Question: Yes, He has a will. What if He has shown us it is His will to heal and not some shot in the dark where we say I cannot know so therefore there is no need from me to lay hands on the sick?
Here's the thing..."If we ask anything according to His will He hears us." How are we going to find His will? It's in His Word, not in our circumstances...unless there is no deceiver out there manipulating the news around us.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
Question: Yes, He has a will. What if He has shown us it is His will to heal and not some shot in the dark where we say I cannot know so therefore there is no need from me to lay hands on the sick?
Here's another thing I just thought of:

I'd love to be able to find a place in the Bible where we do not know God's will, and it comes as a complete surprise, and not His intention. David knew God's will concerning Bathsheba's first child, and he fasted to change His will, and He did not. He did as he said. Moses knew God's will and interceded for the people, and changed God's will. Abraham knew God's will concerning Sodom, and interceded...and rescued Lot but could not save the city by prayer.

Our god is so whimsical, we've given up on knowing anything beyond what someone else taught us.

The problem for me is, Amos was told that God does nothing without first speaking to the prophets. Way to silence God's voice by saying there is no prophet, after Paul himself exhorted us to pray that we might prophesy. I don't have to check in with anyone if God keeps me informed.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
Just for curiosity'sake, how do/did you answer the question of why? If CF (close friend) had a family, I'm sure the question came up. How do you answer the question, "wasn't your faith great enough?" or "did God say 'No' to you?" These are big questions, and serious.

--Rich

After decades of asking the same question, I discovered it all has to do with KNOWING WHO you are IN CHRIST. Then all you have to do is command the healing in Jesus name. The only obstacle is the free will of the person to be healed. If they don't want the healing, or if they just want to die and go home to Jesus, nothing will happen. It works best on animals.
 
Last edited:

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
After decades of asking the same question, I discovered it all has to do with KNOWING WHO you are IN CHRIST. Then all you have to do is command the healing in Jesus name. The only obstacle is the free will of the person to be healed. If they don't want the healing, or if they just want to die and go home to Jesus, nothing will happen. It works best on animals.
Baloney... You are not Christ. Whatever authority you have is limited by the providence and sovereignty of God. If it is your time to come home, you have no choice. Second, I notice you blame the one who is sick. If your faith is so strong enough, per WOF definition of Faith, the loved one should be healed.

You WOF/Charismatic types think and act like you are little gods... Everyone's body succumbs to the curse of Adam... The arrogant are shocked when it is their turn...
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
Baloney... You are not Christ. Whatever authority you have is limited by the providence and sovereignty of God. If it is your time to come home, you have no choice. Second, I notice you blame the one who is sick. If your faith is so strong enough, per WOF definition of Faith, the loved one should be healed.

You WOF/Charismatic types think and act like you are little gods... Everyone's body succumbs to the curse of Adam... The arrogant are shocked when it is their turn...

I have the Spirit of Christ WITHIN me, making it Him doing the healing. Romans 8:9. I KNOW that we are one and do have that authority. Mark 16:16-18. I'm also a child of God. That is all that means, "little gods." He has given me glory to make us one. John 17. A person not wanting healing has nothing to do with their faith. It is their will.

I'm not WoF only because of the prosperity portion, seed faith, and the name it and claim it misinterpretations. A Christian should be content in whatever state they find themselves, and not flaunt their wealth before the poor, anymore than drinking wine before an alcoholic. They also should only "claim" what God through a rhema tells you to claim. But they are more righteous, even with these flaws, because of their desire for holiness and to not sin, than any Cessationist group.
 
Last edited:

SPOKENWORD

Well-known member
Nice Deflection... In my case, I apparently don't have the correct faith according to WOF. So I do need a WOF Centurian.

Walking by faith is walking by trusting Christ... Trusting Christ does not guarantee everything in this life...

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off [e]were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
No you need the God kind of faith. There is still hope. Jesus is praying for you that your faith would not fail you.
 

Yodas_Prodigy

Well-known member
But they are more righteous, even with these flaws, because of their desire for holiness and to not sin, than any Cessationist group.

Hmmmmm.... Now you are judging the hearts of tens of millions of Christians.... Good job... Your Phariseeism is now complete... You may collect your self-righteousness card at your local Charismatic Church...
 

Rockson

Well-known member
WoF teaches we have the inside scoop. Psalm 103 says "heals all my diseases", and we believe "all" means "all," and benefits are benefits. The pesky faith thing is the problem, and I do not have license to derive "God's will" from my circumstances, but from scripture alone.
I like the way you put that. One doesn't have the license to derive "God's will from their circumstances BUT from scripture.

Well said. And yet that's what we see over and over and over without ceasing from those who resist it being God's will to heal all. They have a friend and they were a good Christian and they prayed and weren't healed. Therefore that demands a conclusion it wasn't God's will .

And yet we see this way of thinking set aside in Matt 17:16 and we know what Jesus said to them about it. It does seem though with maybe many they don't really want to hear Jesus say the same things HE SAID at times to his disciples. Never can it be that it is US who failed for one reason or another. To even come close to suggest anything is insensitive, unkind and must be viewed as presumptuous. Yes I agree it could be at times....BUT....JESUS DID talk about reasons why somethings don't happen and it can't be concluded that it was always because God didn't want something to happen. There are also at times if we're wise we'll allow ourselves open to correction.
 

Rockson

Well-known member
Hmmmmm.... Now you are judging the hearts of tens of millions of Christians.... Good job... Your Phariseeism is now complete... You may collect your self-righteousness card at your local Charismatic Church...
I actually agree that one statement from that well meaning poster was somewhat extreme.....really is no need to go there to suggest Cessation groups don't want holiness. Who am I or who would be anyone else to be making such a claim. But really I'm not sure I see any difference between what that one said as compared to how it seems you like to lump all Word of Faith type believers together with your own not so nice stereo type view you place upon them. I think we should ALL learn.....don't be quick in making sweeping generalizations.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
Baloney... You are not Christ. Whatever authority you have is limited by the providence and sovereignty of God. If it is your time to come home, you have no choice. Second, I notice you blame the one who is sick. If your faith is so strong enough, per WOF definition of Faith, the loved one should be healed.

You WOF/Charismatic types think and act like you are little gods... Everyone's body succumbs to the curse of Adam... The arrogant are shocked when it is their turn...
It has nothing to do with the person not having enough faith, but if they actually do not want healing. Perhaps they are very old and tired of being feeble and just want to go be with Jesus, like Paul did.

The way you talk, WoF believes an unconscious person must already be awake and exhibiting matching faith to be healed. You don't know what you are talking about. The blood and name of Jesus is plenty.
 

RiJoRi

Well-known member
But really I'm not sure I see any difference between what that one said as compared to how it seems you like to lump all Word of Faith type believers together with your own not so nice stereo type view you place upon them. I think we should ALL learn.....don't be quick in making sweeping generalizations.
The difficulty lies in the fact that the "big noises" of the WoF movement have proclaimed some pretty odd stuff over the years. If one is going to take the name "Word of Faith", then one must accept that one will be judged by what the "noises" say. For instance, if I call myself "Roman Catholic" I should not be surprised when people say I believe in papal infallibility. For me to protest, "I'm not that kind of Catholic!" would be disingenuous as well as confusing. So for someone to say they are WoF, then complain that they are being compared to the "big noises" is quite confusing.

As I suggested to tbeachhead, the "non-WoF WoF-ers" should call themselves "Faith-in-the-Worders" or something, thereby distancing themselves from the big noise whackos.

Best regards,
--Rich
 

Rockson

Well-known member
The difficulty lies in the fact that the "big noises" of the WoF movement have proclaimed some pretty odd stuff over the years. If one is going to take the name "Word of Faith", then one must accept that one will be judged by what the "noises" say. For instance, if I call myself "Roman Catholic" I should not be surprised when people say I believe in papal infallibility. For me to protest, "I'm not that kind of Catholic!" would be disingenuous as well as confusing. So for someone to say they are WoF, then complain that they are being compared to the "big noises" is quite confusing.

As I suggested to tbeachhead, the "non-WoF WoF-ers" should call themselves "Faith-in-the-Worders" or something, thereby distancing themselves from the big noise whackos.

Best regards,
--Rich
Nonsense and you KNOW IT! I don't know anybody in what most people would call Word of Faith which sign onto to any concept which would say certain individuals should be deemed as infallible in everything they say. So my point made in post 33 still I believe holds true.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
It is time for the forum WOF or the WOF lurkers to step up and set the standard. I am still waiting on someone to be my Centurion and use your faith to restore my finger. I have requested this numerous times. Perhaps your faith is now greater. Perhaps you have repented of your sin. Perhaps you have greater knowledge. Perhaps you are more of a god that years past. Perhaps you have perfected confession. Please let me know when you are going to operate in your faith so I am not startled with a new finger...

Thank You...


View attachment 1130
It is God that does the healing and creative work; but, sorry, He knows when you are mocking. Careful, He just might allow the devil to take another one...
 

Rockson

Well-known member
It is time for the forum WOF or the WOF lurkers to step up and set the standard. I am still waiting on someone to be my Centurion and use your faith to restore my finger.
So if your finger was restored you would what? Come back to the Word of Faith that you claimed you left? So quite a legacy. You end up with one like Thomas who said unless I see a physical manifestation of something I won't believe. You really sure that's what you'd want?
 

Tallen

Well-known member
So if your finger was restored you would what? Come back to the Word of Faith that you claimed you left? So quite a legacy. You end up with one like Thomas who said unless I see a physical manifestation of something I won't believe. You really sure that's what you'd want?
Sure..., Thomas got to speak face to face with the risen Christ. He touched Him. The Lord was gracious to him.
 

RiJoRi

Well-known member
Nonsense and you KNOW IT! I don't know anybody in what most people would call Word of Faith which sign onto to any concept which would say certain individuals should be deemed as infallible in everything they say. So my point made in post 33 still I believe holds true.
Please read what I said again. I was giving an example. You do understand what an example is, right? Basically, if you are going to look like a duck, and act like a duck, then don't complain about a load of birdshot coming your way. In fact, I used myself as an example, not pointing to any WoF-er.

Your over-reactive antics are not at all a good showing of "love your enemy", now are they?
 
Last edited:
Top