Lost Tribes

Open Heart

Well-known member
Sorry............no cigar.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were not Jews.

Moses was not a Jew....and strictly speaking.....The Apostle Paul was not even a Jew, but because he came from Benjamin he adopted that appellation as one of the two tribes of Judah.

This error about who can be called a Jew should end if folks are to understand (not only prophecy) but basic Biblical literacy.
It is correct to call Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as well as Moses, "Jews." It's simply a newer term.

Hawkeye, remember that these sacred texts are ours. They were written by Jews for Jews about Jews. We have spent longer studying them than Christianity has been in existence.
 

Hawkeye

Active member
It is correct to call Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as well as Moses, "Jews." It's simply a newer term.

Hawkeye, remember that these sacred texts are ours. They were written by Jews for Jews about Jews. We have spent longer studying them than Christianity has been in existence.
Well........it may be a newer term.........but it sure isn't a biblical term.

I will agree that most folks believe as you.......and...... are generally mistaken about the question.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
Well........it may be a newer term.........but it sure isn't a biblical term.

I will agree that most folks believe as you.......and...... are generally mistaken about the question.
the word Jew is used in the Tanakh -- read the book of Esther for example.
 

Hawkeye

Active member
the word Jew is used in the Tanakh -- read the book of Esther for example.
Of course Esther was a Jew [Esther 2:5][I Kings 12:23][II Chronicles 11:1] and the term Jew is correctly noted (465/424 B.C.)

"A descendant of the tribe of Benjamin"........one of the two tribes of Israelites that became the Kingdom of Judah after the division of David's (Solomon's) Kingdom.

What would be the reason for not using the word, Jew in the Tanakh....... centuries after the fact? I can't think of anything........can you?

Why would this affect the fact that the "Ten Tribes" were never called Jews.......in the Tanakh?
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
Of course Esther was a Jew [Esther 2:5][I Kings 12:23][II Chronicles 11:1] and the term Jew is correctly noted (465/424 B.C.)

"A descendant of the tribe of Benjamin"........one of the two tribes of Israelites that became the Kingdom of Judah after the division of David's (Solomon's) Kingdom.

What would be the reason for not using the word, Jew in the Tanakh....... centuries after the fact? I can't think of anything........can you?

Why would this affect the fact that the "Ten Tribes" were never called Jews.......in the Tanakh?
When Haman got the king to okay the law to kill all the Jews, that included those of all the tribes, not just Judah. It refers to the Kingdom of Judah, which had Benjamin, Judah, Levi, and refugees of the northern tribes. That's the Tanakh using "Jew" to refer to the ten tribes as well.
 

Hawkeye

Active member
When Haman got the king to okay the law to kill all the Jews, that included those of all the tribes, not just Judah. It refers to the Kingdom of Judah, which had Benjamin, Judah, Levi, and refugees of the northern tribes. That's the Tanakh using "Jew" to refer to the ten tribes as well.
Chapter and verse..........please? I cannot find that passage.

The ten tribes were carried captive to Assyria beginning in about 721 B.C. [II Kings 15:29][II Kings 17:3-6][II Kings 17:6][II Kings 18:11-12][I Chronicles 5:26] and by all accounts the Assyrian Empire imploded about 600 B.C. and the Israelites who had been captive were dispersed throughout the civilized world.....as prophecy had predicted [Amos 9:9]. This Assyrian captive did not include any part of the Kingdom of Judah which was composed of Judah, Benjamin and Levi. There of course were some members of the ten Tribes living in Judah at the time and and may have avoided the captivity to Assyria [II Chronicles 11:13-17][II Chronicles 15:9].

Then in about 600/598 B.C. Judah was taken to Babylon (Assyria did not exist anymore) [II Kings 25:1-21]. If you look at scripture you will not see mention of any of the ten tribes taken to Babylon. Of course there may have been individual Israelites taken with their brothers Judah, Benjamin and Levi but certainly not enough to be assigned tribal status. The same is true when you read Ezra and Nehemiah regarding the return from Babylon 70 years later.

In all of your postings I cannot ascertain why it is so important for you to call Israelites of the northern tribes.....Jews. They were never called that in scripture and the evidence of their disappearing from history is overwhelming. This is not an Anti Semitic statement........it's just attempting to correct a misnomer.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
Chapter and verse..........please? I cannot find that passage.
The verse in the Tanakh about the refugees is too hard for me to find. I do not have it memorized, so I can't google it. However, one such verse does exist -- it speaks to the refugees offering sacrifices down in Judah. Also, ample archaeological evidence backs up the fact that Israelites from the north moved down south -- their seals have been found.

Therefore, logically, they also went into captivity in Babylon, and there they were called Jews, as were all from the Kingdom of Judah.

In all of your postings I cannot ascertain why it is so important for you to call Israelites of the northern tribes.....Jews. They were never called that in scripture and the evidence of their disappearing from history is overwhelming. This is not an Anti Semitic statement........it's just attempting to correct a misnomer.
I'm just a stickler for the truth. There are some who maintain that "Jew" refers to the tribe of Judah, and they are mistaken. Others seem to think that those of the Northern Kingdom, when found, would not be called Jews. This is also not true. We have in fact found some of those from the Northern Tribes and brought them to Israel. There they are certainly called Jews.
 

Bob Dobbalina

Active member
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were not Jews.

Jews are clearly defined in the Scriptures; do Christians read their Bibles?
 

Bob Dobbalina

Active member
The verse in the Tanakh about the refugees is too hard for me to find. I do not have it memorized, so I can't google it. However, one such verse does exist -- it speaks to the refugees offering sacrifices down in Judah. Also, ample archaeological evidence backs up the fact that Israelites from the north moved down south -- their seals have been found.

Therefore, logically, they also went into captivity in Babylon, and there they were called Jews, as were all from the Kingdom of Judah.


I'm just a stickler for the truth. There are some who maintain that "Jew" refers to the tribe of Judah, and they are mistaken. Others seem to think that those of the Northern Kingdom, when found, would not be called Jews. This is also not true. We have in fact found some of those from the Northern Tribes and brought them to Israel. There they are certainly called Jews.
Why were they "almost certainly called Jews?" Why is this so important a question for you that it warrants disregard of evidentiary principles?
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were not Jews.

Jews are clearly defined in the Scriptures; do Christians read their Bibles?
The word "Jew" in the Bible is used, i.e., in the book of Esther and elsewhere to denote those of the KINGDOM of Judah, which included the tribes of Benjamin, Judah, Levi, and refugees of the ten tribes from the north. IOW, in Babylon, the word JEW was used to refer to ALL of the tribes.

Hebrew=Israelite=Jew. The only difference is that the different terms are used more at different times in history, Hebrew being the earliest, and Jew being the latest.

Thus, it is fine to acknowledge Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as the first Jews.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
Why were they "almost certainly called Jews?" Why is this so important a question for you that it warrants disregard of evidentiary principles?
Why did you put "almost certainly called Jews" in quotes? I didn't see it in the quote in your reply. Did I say it in an earlier reply? I don't think so, because I doubt I would have said "almost." There is no doubt that all of the tribes were called Jews.

It is NOT a question for me. It is a proven fact. We have both scriptural and archaeological evidence for it. It is an issue because some people make it into an issue, insisting that JEW refers to the TRIBE of Judah and other wrong headed notions. I'm a stickler for correcting mistakes. Even mistakes about other religions LOL.
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
This is an interview about a film he did. Where does it say he is an orthodox jew?

In the interview...

Q. What transformed you from a Canadian Jewish student activist to a committed Zionist and suburban soccer dad living in Israel?
A. I don’t know that I have been transformed. I was born in Israel, grew up in Canada and came back for my [Israel Defense Forces] service. I continue to commute to my office in Toronto. It’s true that I did not grow up observant and I’m Orthodox today. I’m totally committed to Judaism and Zionism. I wanted my four daughters and son to grow up in the only Jewish state we have. The family loves being here, and although I still bring organic maple syrup back from Canada, everyone feels at home. As for soccer, I am vicariously living out my fantasies through my 10-year-old son, who was asked to play for a Brazilian youth team when he was only 8.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
In the interview...

Q. What transformed you from a Canadian Jewish student activist to a committed Zionist and suburban soccer dad living in Israel?
A. I don’t know that I have been transformed. I was born in Israel, grew up in Canada and came back for my [Israel Defense Forces] service. I continue to commute to my office in Toronto. It’s true that I did not grow up observant and I’m Orthodox today. I’m totally committed to Judaism and Zionism. I wanted my four daughters and son to grow up in the only Jewish state we have. The family loves being here, and although I still bring organic maple syrup back from Canada, everyone feels at home. As for soccer, I am vicariously living out my fantasies through my 10-year-old son, who was asked to play for a Brazilian youth team when he was only 8.
Thank you.
 

Bob Dobbalina

Active member
The fact remains that, as regards the identity of the Jews, Hawkeye is correct. A stickler for the facts should recognize a fact when shown a fact.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
The fact remains that, as regards the identity of the Jews, Hawkeye is correct. A stickler for the facts should recognize a fact when shown a fact.
I can't find the verse, but it mentions Israelites making sacrifices down in Judah. Also, we have plenty of archaeological evidence that proves that Israelites came down from the North as well.
 

Harel13

Active member
I can't find the verse, but it mentions Israelites making sacrifices down in Judah. Also, we have plenty of archaeological evidence that proves that Israelites came down from the North as well.
I don't know which particular verse you're thinking of, but there are multiple such verses and other related ones:

"Jeroboam said to himself, “Now the kingdom may well return to the House of David. If these people still go up to offer sacrifices at the House of the LORD in Jerusalem, the heart of these people will turn back to their master, King Rehoboam of Judah; they will kill me and go back to King Rehoboam of Judah.”" (Kings 1:12:26-27)

"Hezekiah sent word to all Israel and Judah; he also wrote letters to Ephraim and Manasseh to come to the House of the LORD in Jerusalem to keep the Passover for the LORD God of Israel." (Chronicles 2:30:1)

"The king and the whole congregation thought it proper to issue a decree and proclaim throughout all Israel from Beer-sheba to Dan that they come and keep the Passover for the LORD God of Israel in Jerusalem—not often did they act in accord with what was written. The couriers went out with the letters from the king and his officers through all Israel and Judah, by order of the king, proclaiming, “O you Israelites! Return to the LORD God of your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, and He will return to the remnant of you who escaped from the hand of the kings of Assyria. [...] Some of the people of Asher and Manasseh and Zebulun, however, were contrite, and came to Jerusalem." (Chronicles 2:30:4-11)

"When all this was finished, all Israel who were present went out into the towns of Judah and smashed the pillars, cut down the sacred posts, demolished the shrines and altars throughout Judah and Benjamin, and throughout Ephraim and Manasseh, to the very last one. Then all the Israelites returned to their towns, each to his possession." (Chronicles 2:31:1)

"The men of Israel and Judah living in the towns of Judah—they too brought tithes of cattle and sheep and tithes of sacred things consecrated to the LORD their God, piling them in heaps." (Chronicles 2:31:6)

"All Israel was registered by genealogies; and these are in the book of the kings of Israel. And Judah was taken into exile in Babylon because of their trespass. The first to settle in their towns, on their property, were Israelites, priests, Levites, and temple servants, while some of the Judahites and some of the Benjaminites and some of the Ephraimites and Manassehites settled in Jerusalem." (Chronicles 1:9:1-3)
 

Bob Dobbalina

Active member
I don't know which particular verse you're thinking of, but there are multiple such verses and other related ones:

"Jeroboam said to himself, “Now the kingdom may well return to the House of David. If these people still go up to offer sacrifices at the House of the LORD in Jerusalem, the heart of these people will turn back to their master, King Rehoboam of Judah; they will kill me and go back to King Rehoboam of Judah.”" (Kings 1:12:26-27)

"Hezekiah sent word to all Israel and Judah; he also wrote letters to Ephraim and Manasseh to come to the House of the LORD in Jerusalem to keep the Passover for the LORD God of Israel." (Chronicles 2:30:1)

"The king and the whole congregation thought it proper to issue a decree and proclaim throughout all Israel from Beer-sheba to Dan that they come and keep the Passover for the LORD God of Israel in Jerusalem—not often did they act in accord with what was written. The couriers went out with the letters from the king and his officers through all Israel and Judah, by order of the king, proclaiming, “O you Israelites! Return to the LORD God of your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, and He will return to the remnant of you who escaped from the hand of the kings of Assyria. [...] Some of the people of Asher and Manasseh and Zebulun, however, were contrite, and came to Jerusalem." (Chronicles 2:30:4-11)

"When all this was finished, all Israel who were present went out into the towns of Judah and smashed the pillars, cut down the sacred posts, demolished the shrines and altars throughout Judah and Benjamin, and throughout Ephraim and Manasseh, to the very last one. Then all the Israelites returned to their towns, each to his possession." (Chronicles 2:31:1)

"The men of Israel and Judah living in the towns of Judah—they too brought tithes of cattle and sheep and tithes of sacred things consecrated to the LORD their God, piling them in heaps." (Chronicles 2:31:6)

"All Israel was registered by genealogies; and these are in the book of the kings of Israel. And Judah was taken into exile in Babylon because of their trespass. The first to settle in their towns, on their property, were Israelites, priests, Levites, and temple servants, while some of the Judahites and some of the Benjaminites and some of the Ephraimites and Manassehites settled in Jerusalem." (Chronicles 1:9:1-3)
In every verse you cite, a distinction is made between Israel and Judah. Why mention both if they are synonymous?
 

Bob Dobbalina

Active member
I can't find the verse, but it mentions Israelites making sacrifices down in Judah. Also, we have plenty of archaeological evidence that proves that Israelites came down from the North as well.
Maybe you can’t find the verse because it doesn’t exist? Until you can cite it, that possibility remains.
 
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