Lost Tribes

[Harel13]

In every verse you cite, a distinction is made between Israel and Judah. Why mention both if they are synonymous?

I didn't say they were synonymous. Perhaps @Open Heart wrote that?
It is my view that Judah and Israel are one nation. A distinction is necessary for the same reason that Israel is comprised of 12 (or 13, depends how you count) tribes, which is that each tribe has unique qualities that make the whole better.

 

[Open Heart]

I didn't say they were synonymous. Perhaps @Open Heart wrote that?
It is my view that Judah and Israel are one nation. A distinction is necessary for the same reason that Israel is comprised of 12 (or 13, depends how you count) tribes, which is that each tribe has unique qualities that make the whole better.

Oh no. I didn't say that Israel and Judah were synonymous. What I said is that refugees from Israel, when Assyria conquered it, came down to Judah and took up residency therer. Therefore, when Judah went into captivity in Babylon, the captives included those from the northern tribes as well. Thus, in Babylon, ALL the tribes got called Jews.

 

[Bob Dobbalina]

I didn't say they were synonymous. Perhaps @Open Heart wrote that?
It is my view that Judah and Israel are one nation. A distinction is necessary for the same reason that Israel is comprised of 12 (or 13, depends how you count) tribes, which is that each tribe has unique qualities that make the whole better.

It is your view? That’s nice. You do realize there is a distinction to be made between your view, my view, any man’s view and the Torah- right?
Judah and Israel make up the nation of Israel; there we agree.
For some reason, YHWH continually refers to the two- why? This is a sincere question. It is my view that every word in the Torah is there for a reason. So my question remains.

 

[Bob Dobbalina]

I wrote Judaism ≠ Torah; someone asked about that so I’ll clarify. Judaism is Torah + all the nonsense that makes up the oral teachings. Christianity has the same problem. The traditions of men and their corrupting influence were the focus of the vast majority of Yeshua’s teachings.

 

[Bob Dobbalina]

I didn't say they were synonymous. Perhaps @Open Heart wrote that?
It is my view that Judah and Israel are one nation. A distinction is necessary for the same reason that Israel is comprised of 12 (or 13, depends how you count) tribes, which is that each tribe has unique qualities that make the whole better.

You never said they were synonymous. Nobody did. Yet no one will even venture a thought as to why YHWH chose to make the distinction throughout Torah. Is His word sent forth without purpose or is there possibly something to be learned by seeking the answer?

 

[Bob Dobbalina]

Yes, some refugees from Israel were in residency when Judah went into Babylonian captivity. That does not in any way negate the question put forth here. You’ve decided there is no question it seems. I believe Torah to be the holy word o f YHWH and worthy of study and for me the question remains. Your apathy is not an answer.

 

[Open Heart]

Yes, some refugees from Israel were in residency when Judah went into Babylonian captivity. That does not in any way negate the question put forth here. You’ve decided there is no question it seems. I believe Torah to be the holy word o f YHWH and worthy of study and for me the question remains. Your apathy is not an answer.

The question I thought was put forth was, who are the Jews? Are the Jews the same as the Israelites. THAT has been answered affirmatively.

You are confusing the words Torah, which is the five books of law, and the Tanakh (TNK) which is the Torah, teh Nevi'im (prophets) and the ketuvim (writings). the word Jew is never used in the Torah. It came later in history, when the Kingdom of Judah went into captivity in babylon.

 

[Open Heart]

I wrote Judaism ≠ Torah; someone asked about that so I’ll clarify. Judaism is Torah + all the nonsense that makes up the oral teachings. Christianity has the same problem. The traditions of men and their corrupting influence were the focus of the vast majority of Yeshua’s teachings.

I am not disputing that Judaism by definition includes the Oral Torah as well as the written Torah, the Prophets, and Writings of the Tanakh, as well as the long history of what the sages have written.

 

[Open Heart]

You never said they were synonymous. Nobody did. Yet no one will even venture a thought as to why YHWH chose to make the distinction throughout Torah. Is His word sent forth without purpose or is there possibly something to be learned by seeking the answer?

Again, teh Torah is the five books of Law. The twelve tribes hadn't even entered into Canaan during the writien of the Torah, much less had Israel divided into two kingdoms.

 

[Open Heart]

Yes, some refugees from Israel were in residency when Judah went into Babylonian captivity. That does not in any way negate the question put forth here. You’ve decided there is no question it seems. I believe Torah to be the holy word o f YHWH and worthy of study and for me the question remains. Your apathy is not an answer.

So Bob, what is your religion? Is there any other set of writing besides the Torah that you accept?

 

[Bob Dobbalina]

I am not disputing that Judaism by definition includes the Oral Torah as well as the written Torah, the Prophets, and Writings of the Tanakh, as well as the long history of what the sages have written.

I am disputing that; I put no faith in the traditions of men, oral and otherwise. Yeshua inveighed against the traditions of men vehemently, calling them corrupt and evil.

I’ll get back to this board tomorrow, Lord willing and the Creek don’t rise.

 

[Open Heart]

I am disputing that; I put no faith in the traditions of men, oral and otherwise. Yeshua inveighed against the traditions of men vehemently, calling them corrupt and evil.

I’ll get back to this board tomorrow, Lord willing and the Creek don’t rise.

You need to read Matthew 23:1-2. Do EVERYTHING they (the Pharisees) teach. That includes oral torah.

 

[American Gothic]

👽👾

 

[American Gothic]

🖖

 

[Harel13]

This is a sincere question. It is my view that every word in the Torah is there for a reason. So my question remains.

My answer comes from the Torah-based Jewish view, so I don't understand what you find problematic about it.

 

[balshan]

The fact remains that, as regards the identity of the Jews, Hawkeye is correct. A stickler for the facts should recognize a fact when shown a fact.

The fact is God has said He will bring the Israelites, Hebrews, Jewish people ,who are His people, back into their land. This is scriptural. There are over 20 verses about Israel coming back from exile. Whatever name you want to call His people. They are the apple of His eye.

The Tribes of Israel are the traditional divisions of the ancient Jewish people. Biblical tradition holds that the twelve tribes of Israel are descended from the sons and grandsons of the Jewish forefather Jacob and are called “Israel” from Jacob’s name given to him by God.

The Twelve Tribes of Israel

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

Jer 23:6


“In His days Judah will be saved,
And Israel will dwell securely;
And this is His name by which He will be called,
‘The Lord our righteousness.’

Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Land-Permanently-Restored-To-Israel

 

[Hawkeye]

The fact is God has said He will bring the Israelites, Hebrews, Jewish people ,who are His people, back into their land. This is scriptural. There are over 20 verses about Israel coming back from exile. Whatever name you want to call His people. They are the apple of His eye.

The Tribes of Israel are the traditional divisions of the ancient Jewish people. Biblical tradition holds that the twelve tribes of Israel are descended from the sons and grandsons of the Jewish forefather Jacob and are called “Israel” from Jacob’s name given to him by God.

The Twelve Tribes of Israel

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

Jer 23:6


“In His days Judah will be saved,
And Israel will dwell securely;
And this is His name by which He will be called,
‘The Lord our righteousness.’

Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Land-Permanently-Restored-To-Israel

Jacob was not a Jew.....he was a Hebrew......descended from "Eber" through Abraham et.al.
His son, Judah was the first Jew identified by scripture as well as history (see post #15).

Only three tribes were ever (in scripture) called Jews.......Judah, Benjamin and much of Levi. The latter two because of their affiliation with Judah in the southern kingdom and subsequent captivity in Babylon.

It is not scriptural.....or historical fact......to refer to the northern ten tribes as Jews. Simply because it is never documented that way by the Great God of the universe, Yahweh.

 

[Open Heart]

It is your view? That’s nice. You do realize there is a distinction to be made between your view, my view, any man’s view and the Torah- right?
Judah and Israel make up the nation of Israel; there we agree.
For some reason, YHWH continually refers to the two- why? This is a sincere question. It is my view that every word in the Torah is there for a reason. So my question remains.

The only time that the People of Israel were ever described as two houses were when we had the split kingdom --Israel in teh North and Judah in the south. This was a temporary thing. We were one people before the split, and we are one people now that there is no split. So while it is true that we can refer to each of those two kingdoms in history separately, Harel13 is correct that we are one people.

 

[Open Heart]

Jacob was not a Jew.....he was a Hebrew......descended from "Eber" through Abraham et.al.
His son, Judah was the first Jew identified by scripture as well as history (see post #15).

Only three tribes were ever (in scripture) called Jews.......Judah, Benjamin and much of Levi. The latter two because of their affiliation with Judah in the southern kingdom and subsequent captivity in Babylon.

It is not scriptural.....or historical fact......to refer to the northern ten tribes as Jews. Simply because it is never documented that way by the Great God of the universe, Yahweh.

Hebrew=Israelite=Jew.

Each of the three words is more common in different eras. But they refer to the same group of people: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the descendents of Jacob, plus those who are adopted into the people via conversion.

It is perfectly reasonable to refer to the 10 northern tribes as Jews. I personally know someone who is of the tribe of Ephraim. His extended family was found living with gypsies, but they only used the Torah. His last name is literally Ephramovich, which means son of Ephram. And you wanna know what? He is called a JEW.

 

[Hawkeye]

Hebrew=Israelite=Jew.

Each of the three words is more common in different eras. But they refer to the same group of people: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the descendents of Jacob, plus those who are adopted into the people via conversion.

It is perfectly reasonable to refer to the 10 northern tribes as Jews. I personally know someone who is of the tribe of Ephraim. His extended family was found living with gypsies, but they only used the Torah. His last name is literally Ephramovich, which means son of Ephram. And you wanna know what? He is called a JEW.

Good grief....why don't you offer up some scripture? As far as I know...... everthing you have submitted here is conjecture....and personal opinion.

What you consider to be "reasonable" does not hold up a candle to divine inspiration. You cannot have it your way because you like it that way. It must conform to Yahweh's teaching