Semantics trying to fool yourself that the Jewish people are not in scripture because of the various terms used throughout their history. They are still the same people group. Not interested in semantics.
Lost Tribes
- Thread starter Open Heart
- Start date
Hawkeye
Active member
I don't believe I'm being fooled.....but I do know how read scripture and believe what it says......semantics or not.
According to your way of thinking...all the descendants of Abraham and Issac would also be Jews. How siily...........
If you told the descendents of Ishmael and Esau they were really Jews.......you might have some argument. Most of them are today's Muslims.
Phil 3
4 If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless.
It seems Paul was from the tribe of Ben, part of Kingdom of Judah.
The Use of Israel
in the New Testament
by Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum
Acts 5:21
At daybreak they entered the temple courts, as they had been told, and began to teach the people. When the high priest and his associates arrived, they called together the Sanhedrin—the full assembly of the elders of Israel—and sent to the jail for the apostles.
The word Jew is derived from the word Yudah:
Spelling with J- predominated from 16c. Replaced Old English Iudeas "the Jews," which is from Latin. As an offensive and opprobrious term, "person who seeks gain by sordid means," c. 1600. Jews' harp "simple mouth harp" is from 1580s, earlier Jews' trump (1540s); the connection with Jewishness is obscure, unless it is somehow biblical.
In uneducated times, inexplicable ancient artifacts were credited to Jews, based on the biblical chronology of history: such as Jews' money (1570s) "Roman coins found in England." In Greece, after Christianity had erased the memory of classical glory, ruins of pagan temples were called "Jews' castles," and in Cornwall, Jews' houses was the name for the remains of ancient tin-smelting works.
www.etymonline.com
The Hebrew, Israelites, Judah are still around. I do not understand why you try and deny the Jewish people their birthright.
I am passing on the very valid warning from Paul:
rom 11
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
4 If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless.
It seems Paul was from the tribe of Ben, part of Kingdom of Judah.
The Use of Israel
in the New Testament
by Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum
The Israel of God, the term "Israel" in the New Testament
www.middletownbiblechurch.org
Acts 5:21
At daybreak they entered the temple courts, as they had been told, and began to teach the people. When the high priest and his associates arrived, they called together the Sanhedrin—the full assembly of the elders of Israel—and sent to the jail for the apostles.
The word Jew is derived from the word Yudah:
Jew (n.)
late 12c., Giw, Jeu, "a Jew (ancient or modern), one of the Jewish race or religion," from Anglo-French iuw, Old French giu (Modern French Juif), from Latin Iudaeum (nominative Iudaeus), from Greek Ioudaios, from Aramaic (Semitic) jehudhai (Hebrew y'hudi) "a Jew," from Y'hudah "Judah," literally "celebrated," name of Jacob's fourth son and of the tribe descended from him.Spelling with J- predominated from 16c. Replaced Old English Iudeas "the Jews," which is from Latin. As an offensive and opprobrious term, "person who seeks gain by sordid means," c. 1600. Jews' harp "simple mouth harp" is from 1580s, earlier Jews' trump (1540s); the connection with Jewishness is obscure, unless it is somehow biblical.
In uneducated times, inexplicable ancient artifacts were credited to Jews, based on the biblical chronology of history: such as Jews' money (1570s) "Roman coins found in England." In Greece, after Christianity had erased the memory of classical glory, ruins of pagan temples were called "Jews' castles," and in Cornwall, Jews' houses was the name for the remains of ancient tin-smelting works.
jew | Etymology, origin and meaning of the name jew by etymonline
JEW Meaning: "a Jew (ancient or modern), one of the Jewish race or religion," from Anglo-French iuw, Old French giu… See origin and meaning of jew.
www.etymonline.com
The Hebrew, Israelites, Judah are still around. I do not understand why you try and deny the Jewish people their birthright.
I am passing on the very valid warning from Paul:
rom 11
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
That is rubbish. You really want the Jewish people not to exist but they do and they always will. God calls them the apple of His eye and He never says that about another people group.
Open Heart
Well-known member
And the people of Israel and Judah who lived in the cities of Judah also brought in the tithe of cattle and sheep, and the tithe of the dedicated things that had been dedicated to the Lord their God, and laid them in heaps.
– 2 Chronicles 31.6
Bob Dobbalina
Active member
The word Jew is derived from Yudah.Phil 3
4 If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless.
It seems Paul was from the tribe of Ben, part of Kingdom of Judah.
The Use of Israel
in the New Testament
by Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum
The Israel of God, the term "Israel" in the New Testament
www.middletownbiblechurch.org
Acts 5:21
At daybreak they entered the temple courts, as they had been told, and began to teach the people. When the high priest and his associates arrived, they called together the Sanhedrin—the full assembly of the elders of Israel—and sent to the jail for the apostles.
The word Jew is derived from the word Yudah:
Jew (n.)
late 12c., Giw, Jeu, "a Jew (ancient or modern), one of the Jewish race or religion," from Anglo-French iuw, Old French giu (Modern French Juif), from Latin Iudaeum (nominative Iudaeus), from Greek Ioudaios, from Aramaic (Semitic) jehudhai (Hebrew y'hudi) "a Jew," from Y'hudah "Judah," literally "celebrated," name of Jacob's fourth son and of the tribe descended from him.
Spelling with J- predominated from 16c. Replaced Old English Iudeas "the Jews," which is from Latin. As an offensive and opprobrious term, "person who seeks gain by sordid means," c. 1600. Jews' harp "simple mouth harp" is from 1580s, earlier Jews' trump (1540s); the connection with Jewishness is obscure, unless it is somehow biblical.
In uneducated times, inexplicable ancient artifacts were credited to Jews, based on the biblical chronology of history: such as Jews' money (1570s) "Roman coins found in England." In Greece, after Christianity had erased the memory of classical glory, ruins of pagan temples were called "Jews' castles," and in Cornwall, Jews' houses was the name for the remains of ancient tin-smelting works.
jew | Etymology, origin and meaning of the name jew by etymonline
JEW Meaning: "a Jew (ancient or modern), one of the Jewish race or religion," from Anglo-French iuw, Old French giu… See origin and meaning of jew.
The Hebrew, Israelites, Judah are still around. I do not understand why you try and deny the Jewish people their birthright.
I am passing on the very valid warning from Paul:
rom 11
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
In your post, you make Hawkeye’s point for him.
According to your way of thinking...all the descendants of Abraham and Issac would also be Jews. How siily...........
If you told the descendents of Ishmael and Esau they were really Jews.......you might have some argument. Most of them are today's Muslims.
I think Hawkeye makes a good point here.
Your thoughts?
Where did Hawkeye suggest that he doesn’t want the Jews to exist?
I come to CARM in search of reasoned, thoughtful debate. When unable to support a belief with scripture, what, other than to reconsider those beliefs, should a Christian do?
Bob Dobbalina
Active member
Given that much of the oral teachings of the Pharisees were denounced by Yeshua, I suggest to you that they are among the evil works that are covered in the following verses of that same chapter.
Open Heart
Well-known member
Actually the Hebrew word is Yehudi.
It refers to the citizens of the Kingdom of Judah who went into Babylon. Mostly they were of the tribes of Levi, Benjamin, and Judah, but they also contained refugees from the 10 northern tribes. IOW JEW refers to all of the people of Israel.
Open Heart
Well-known member
I don't see Jesus undermining the Oral Torah. He argues about areas that are not fully established, and arguing in that manner is a firm Jewish tradition. We have many such debates int eh Talmud. Jesus was being a normal Jew to participate in such debates.
In Matthew 23:23 Jesus basically says to do both the written torah and oral torah. He says to get the basics of the written Torah down first, but ALSO keep oral torah (the spice tax).
That would not be scriptural at all because Ishmael is never considered to be one of the 12 tribes, your comment shows a complete lack of understanding of scripture. But no surprise. Hawkeye is wrong. You have not supported your belief with scripture. Whereas I have used scripture as evidence.
Abraham is not Jewish in the beginning, He becomes one of God's people when he chooses to follow God.
Who was the first Jew? | GotQuestions.org
Who was the first Jew? Was Abraham the first Jew? Where in the Bible does the word Jew first appear?
www.gotquestions.org
The promised line is from Abraham and Sarah not the other two mothers of his children. God is free to choose. God chose Jacob not Esau. Isaac over his other siblings. This is a constant of God choosing His line and rejecting others.
Rom 9:13
Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
So no Hawkeye is wrong. To say what Hawkeye and you say is to reject God is able to choose who He wants and does so.
Hawkeye
Active member
Phil 3
4 If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless.
It seems Paul was from the tribe of Ben, part of Kingdom of Judah.
The Use of Israel
in the New Testament
by Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum
The Israel of God, the term "Israel" in the New Testament
www.middletownbiblechurch.org
Acts 5:21
At daybreak they entered the temple courts, as they had been told, and began to teach the people. When the high priest and his associates arrived, they called together the Sanhedrin—the full assembly of the elders of Israel—and sent to the jail for the apostles.
The word Jew is derived from the word Yudah:
Jew (n.)
late 12c., Giw, Jeu, "a Jew (ancient or modern), one of the Jewish race or religion," from Anglo-French iuw, Old French giu (Modern French Juif), from Latin Iudaeum (nominative Iudaeus), from Greek Ioudaios, from Aramaic (Semitic) jehudhai (Hebrew y'hudi) "a Jew," from Y'hudah "Judah," literally "celebrated," name of Jacob's fourth son and of the tribe descended from him.
Spelling with J- predominated from 16c. Replaced Old English Iudeas "the Jews," which is from Latin. As an offensive and opprobrious term, "person who seeks gain by sordid means," c. 1600. Jews' harp "simple mouth harp" is from 1580s, earlier Jews' trump (1540s); the connection with Jewishness is obscure, unless it is somehow biblical.
In uneducated times, inexplicable ancient artifacts were credited to Jews, based on the biblical chronology of history: such as Jews' money (1570s) "Roman coins found in England." In Greece, after Christianity had erased the memory of classical glory, ruins of pagan temples were called "Jews' castles," and in Cornwall, Jews' houses was the name for the remains of ancient tin-smelting works.
jew | Etymology, origin and meaning of the name jew by etymonline
JEW Meaning: "a Jew (ancient or modern), one of the Jewish race or religion," from Anglo-French iuw, Old French giu… See origin and meaning of jew.
The Hebrew, Israelites, Judah are still around. I do not understand why you try and deny the Jewish people their birthright.
I am passing on the very valid warning from Paul:
rom 11
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare
Why are you implying that I beleive that Jews are not Israelites as well? Would you please show me where I have ever suggested that?
In fact I have repeatedly made statements to the contrary.....i.e.
All Jews are Israelites. Not all Israelites are Jews........just as all Texans are Americans.....but not all Americans are Texans!
Please post facts.....not your opinions.......
Hawkeye
Active member
How totally untrue this statement is. I have no idea where you have pulled it from but you certainly cannot garner that from anything I have written on this thread.....or ever on this forum. You should be ashamed for even suggesting that!
Hawkeye
Active member
What exactly is your point? Of course some Isralites came south to worship in the temple. The vast majority did not and were scattered throughout the civilized world as we read in Amos 9.
Hawkeye
Active member
Then why are they not mentioned in the books of Ezra and Nehemiah which Chronical the return from captivity?
Why would early church fathers go out of their way in their letters to show the origination of the word "Jew" with tribe of Judah.
It seems that folks in the first and second centuries early church did not agree with you opinion.........and that's exactly what it is.
Hawkeye
Active member
That would not be scriptural at all because Ishmael is never considered to be one of the 12 tribes, your comment shows a complete lack of understanding of scripture. But no surprise. Hawkeye is wrong. You have not supported your belief with scripture. Whereas I have used scripture as evidence.
Abraham is not Jewish in the beginning, He becomes one of God's people when he chooses to follow God.
Who was the first Jew? | GotQuestions.org
Who was the first Jew? Was Abraham the first Jew? Where in the Bible does the word Jew first appear?www.gotquestions.org
The promised line is from Abraham and Sarah not the other two mothers of his children. God is free to choose. God chose Jacob not Esau. Isaac over his other siblings. This is a constant of God choosing His line and rejecting others.
Rom 9:13
Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
So no Hawkeye is wrong. To say what Hawkeye and you say is to reject God is able to choose who He wants and does so.
You're correct. Ishmael was not a progenitor of any tribe of Israel. Very astute!
But he was a descendent of Eber through Abraham et.al, which makes him a Hebrew.
How about Esau, son of Issac? Was he a Jew? If his father and grandfather were Jewish......I guess genetics would call him one as well.
Do you see how silly your position really is?
Hawkeye
Active member
It is very difficult to debate with folks things inspired and eternal when they continue to ignore plain scripture and begin to make unfounded accusations against their opponent.
This is a classic "battle of the "wits" and they are unarmed!
Thank you for your kind words and support.
Open Heart
Well-known member
The word Jew was not applied to the TRIBE of Judah, it was applied to the KINGDOM of Judah. In this kingdom, you had ALL the tribes by the time it went into captivity.
And the people of Israel and Judah who lived in the cities of Judah also brought in the tithe of cattle and sheep, and the tithe of the dedicated things that had been dedicated to the Lord their God, and laid them in heaps. – 2 Chronicles 31.6
You also need to deal with the archaeological evidence that Israelites from the northern kingdom came to live down in Judah. https://www.timesofisrael.com/jerus...ees-2300-years-ago-archaeological-finds-show/
Open Heart
Well-known member
What happened to the "vast majority" is irrelevant to my point. My point is that there WERE those who moved to Judah and went into captivity, where they were called JEWS.
Bob Dobbalina
Active member
Why do you suppose those who choose traditions over scripture are so vehement about it? It is not a question of salvational importance;i.e., there is no threat of hellfire regarding where one stands on the issue.
I think it has to do with the fundamental laziness of people and their preference for the easiest path, rather than the correct one. Your thoughts?
Open Heart
Well-known member
It's really not a matter of choosing traditions over scripture. Its a matter of understanding that scripture must be interpreted, so you have to, by necessity (not to mention the command of God in Deut 17) have to have an authoritative way to interpret. In Judaism, this need is met by the Oral Torah.