Lost Tribes

Hawkeye

Active member
Why do you suppose those who choose traditions over scripture are so vehement about it? It is not a question of salvational importance;i.e., there is no threat of hellfire regarding where one stands on the issue.
I think it has to do with the fundamental laziness of people and their preference for the easiest path, rather than the correct one. Your thoughts?

Well.......Yeshua said there will be many who will follow tradition .......so.......I guess someone has to do it. It's an age old story........the more mistaken they are.....the louder they get.

I have found in my Biblical walk that so much that the mainstream church preaches is just simply untrue..... so it must be purposeful. I have become very wary when someone tries to explain scripture to me without providing back up scripture to support their position.

This is what we see on this thread. If they believe Abraham was a Jew then his entire progeny would also be Jewish......including Ishmael, Isaac, Esau and all the children of Edom. No one has yet stepped forward to explain this dichotomy.

.........and they won't........
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
Well.......Yeshua said there will be many who will follow tradition .......so.......I guess someone has to do it. It's an age old story........the more mistaken they are.....the louder they get.

I have found in my Biblical walk that so much that the mainstream church preaches is just simply untrue..... so it must be purposeful. I have become very wary when someone tries to explain scripture to me without providing back up scripture to support their position.

This is what we see on this thread. If they believe Abraham was a Jew then his entire progeny would also be Jewish......including Ishmael, Isaac, Esau and all the children of Edom. No one has yet stepped forward to explain this dichotomy.

.........and they won't........
I think it is very odd that you assume you can have only tradition or scripture and must choose between them. Rather, tradition aka the oral torah is the explanation how to obey the written Torah. It makes keeping the Torah possible.
 

Bob Dobbalina

Active member
I think it is very odd that you assume you can have only tradition or scripture and must choose between them. Rather, tradition aka the oral torah is the explanation how to obey the written Torah. It makes keeping the Torah possible.
Please cite the name of the learned Jewish scholar who teaches that Abraham and all his children are Jews.

edited to correct placement.
 
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Open Heart

Well-known member
Please cite the name of the learned Jewish scholar who teaches that Abraham and all his children are Jews.

edited to correct placement.
Why is ABraham considered the first Jew? https://www.aish.com/atr/Abraham_First_Jew.html

Judaism. In Jewish tradition, Abraham is called Avraham Avinu (אברהם אבינו), "our father Abraham," signifying that he is both the biological progenitor of the Jews and the father of Judaism, the first Jew.

 

Hawkeye

Active member
Why is ABraham considered the first Jew? https://www.aish.com/atr/Abraham_First_Jew.html

Judaism. In Jewish tradition, Abraham is called Avraham Avinu (אברהם אבינו), "our father Abraham," signifying that he is both the biological progenitor of the Jews and the father of Judaism, the first Jew.


Yes.....you've offered this flimsy reasoning before and it is incorrect and does not follow scripture. There is no mention of the word "Jew" until the second book of Kings......and at that point in time they are at war against the nation of Israel! So much for your Abraham connection and its Rabbinical teachings.

Just exactly what is it that you think Yeshua preached against and why He caused the temple curtain to be torn asunder at His death? Why was the Levitical Priesthood no longer necessary in the New Covenant?

If you're looking for oral tradition to be your guide for things spiritual.......we'll probably end up sending out a search party for you someday.

While you're at it......please explain why Esau and the children of Edom are not considered Jewish. Chapter and verse............
 

Bob Dobbalina

Active member
Why is ABraham considered the first Jew? https://www.aish.com/atr/Abraham_First_Jew.html

Judaism. In Jewish tradition, Abraham is called Avraham Avinu (אברהם אבינו), "our father Abraham," signifying that he is both the biological progenitor of the Jews and the father of Judaism, the first Jew.

As the father of Judah, Abraham is the father of the Jews. He was not Jewish himself; just as Abraham had daughters yet he was not a woman.
Citing Wikipedia as your source is laughable.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
Yes.....you've offered this flimsy reasoning before and it is incorrect and does not follow scripture. There is no mention of the word "Jew" until the second book of Kings......and at that point in time they are at war against the nation of Israel! So much for your Abraham connection and its Rabbinical teachings.

Just exactly what is it that you think Yeshua preached against and why He caused the temple curtain to be torn asunder at His death? Why was the Levitical Priesthood no longer necessary in the New Covenant?

If you're looking for oral tradition to be your guide for things spiritual.......we'll probably end up sending out a search party for you someday.

While you're at it......please explain why Esau and the children of Edom are not considered Jewish. Chapter and verse............
"Jew" is not used until later in history because it was used to describe someone in Babylon who had come from the Kingdom of Judah. But who could that person have been? It could have been someone from ANY of th 12 tribes. Thus Hebrew=Israelite=Jew

If you actually read Genesis, you will know that the covenant didn't pass through Esau, or Ishmael. This is not rocket science.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
As the father of Judah, Abraham is the father of the Jews. He was not Jewish himself; just as Abraham had daughters yet he was not a woman.
Citing Wikipedia as your source is laughable.
Actually Abraham was GRANDFATHER to Judah.

So what does the person of Judah have to do with the term Jew? Nothing. It has nothing to do with his person, or with his tribe.

Jew has to do with the KINGDOM of Judah, which went into captivity. This kindgom had citizens that were of all 12 tribes. In Babylon, all of them were called Jews.

So please, no more talk of the man Judah. He is not relevant to the meaning of the word Jew.
 

Hawkeye

Active member
Actually Abraham was GRANDFATHER to Judah.

So what does the person of Judah have to do with the term Jew? Nothing. It has nothing to do with his person, or with his tribe.

Jew has to do with the KINGDOM of Judah, which went into captivity. This kindgom had citizens that were of all 12 tribes. In Babylon, all of them were called Jews.

So please, no more talk of the man Judah. He is not relevant to the meaning of the word Jew.

Actually...Abraham was great grandfather to Judah........Issac, Jacob and Judah.
 

Bob Dobbalina

Active member
I get so caught up in other people’s nonsense that I end up humbled myself. Facts are lost on others so I’m gonna spend some time correcting my own errors.
 

Bob Dobbalina

Active member
Actually Abraham was GRANDFATHER to Judah.

So what does the person of Judah have to do with the term Jew? Nothing. It has nothing to do with his person, or with his tribe.

Jew has to do with the KINGDOM of Judah, which went into captivity. This kindgom had citizens that were of all 12 tribes. In Babylon, all of them were called Jews.

So please, no more talk of the man Judah. He is not relevant to the meaning of the word Jew.
As Hawkeye noted, he was great-grandfather to Judah.

The Jews were exhorted to leave Babylon behind so why do you insist on carrying on the erroneous traditions established there? It’s been plainly shown through scripture that you are in error; of course, you are welcome to stay in Babylon.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
As Hawkeye noted, he was great-grandfather to Judah.

The Jews were exhorted to leave Babylon behind so why do you insist on carrying on the erroneous traditions established there? It’s been plainly shown through scripture that you are in error; of course, you are welcome to stay in Babylon.
I'm not in Babylon. I'm in southern california, and I'm called a Jew. Descendants of all the tribes as well as halakhic converts are called Jews. Get with the program man.
 

Bob Dobbalina

Active member
I'm not in Babylon. I'm in southern california, and I'm called a Jew. Descendants of all the tribes as well as halakhic converts are called Jews. Get with the program man.
Your program is built on a foundation of sand. There is no scripture that supports your belief; you cite nothing but tradition. Yeshua spoke often and vehemently against the traditions of men. You can keep your worthless program, man.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
Your program is built on a foundation of sand. There is no scripture that supports your belief; you cite nothing but tradition. Yeshua spoke often and vehemently against the traditions of men. You can keep your worthless program, man.
I gave both a Bible verse showing Israelites from the North living down in the Kingdom of Jordon, and a website for the archaeological evidence of the same. Granite. Sheer granite.
 

Bob Dobbalina

Active member
I gave both a Bible verse showing Israelites from the North living down in the Kingdom of Jordon, and a website for the archaeological evidence of the same. Granite. Sheer granite.
You should explain to the millions in the Middle East that Ishmael was Jewish. Perhaps you could bring peace to the land.
 

Bob Dobbalina

Active member
I’m going to address all that I’ve read this far shortly but I just need to understand this one thing before I go on- was Esau Jewish?
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
I’m going to address all that I’ve read this far shortly but I just need to understand this one thing before I go on- was Esau Jewish?
Why are you bothering? No one has said that Esau was Jewish. No one. It's bizarre when people argue against straw men.
 

Bob Dobbalina

Active member
Why are you bothering? No one has said that Esau was Jewish. No one. It's bizarre when people argue against straw men.
I’m just trying to understand on what Biblical principles your assertions are based. You say Abraham is a Jew but Esau, his grandson, is not? Or do you maintain that Abraham is not Jewish?
I am in no way arguing against straw men. I’m trying to make sense of your position regarding the question at hand, trying to make sure I understand your position correctly before I go any further.

For some reason, YHWH saw fit to make a distinction between the nation of Israel and the Kingdom of the Jews. As Hawkeye pointed out, the first appearance of the word “Jew” in the Bible is II Kings 16:6. In the scriptures, the Jews connoted those born into the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and Levi. The distinction is maintained throughout the OT. I seek to understand why.
I believe there is a point to every word of the scriptures so my question remains. You have shared here your belief and opinion. I disagree; it’s as simple as that.
 
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